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The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

economist.com

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Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#31

Post by goodcanadian »

Zafira wrote: post #19
roenxi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been a consistent theme to responses to major crisis in US has faced in my lifetime - every time, after the crisis the situation is worse than it was before the crisis. Not because of the crisis, but because of the response. 9/11, the 2008 recession (QE is still with us) and now COVID. The scars from the first two really should have healed a long time ago. It'll be a pretty dire future if the COVID response…

You can see the failure of American leadership and an inability to engage in global crises in a decisive manner since Vietnam due to our inability to get over our incompetence and total misunderstanding of the political situation during the war there. I have a strong suspicion that American foreign policy wonks still don't understand why we failed in Vietnam; why applying the lens of containment and the same policy e…

You see this in the way we celebrated "liberating" Grenada.

A nitpick, but Grenada celebrates the US liberation with a Thanksgiving Day holiday, on October 25:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_Day#Grenada

Appearances at the time were misleading. It is one of the few interventions that I think the US got right.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#32

Post by skrebbel »

lozenge wrote: post #30
econol0dge wrote: post #3

From the article, it sounds like our response to the pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights. The virus is not agentic, and what they describe are intentional acts by human beings.

New Zealand's lockdown was announced nine days before it had legal effect, a court case found that was illegal. Every country has let these values fall in one way or another.

I think the Netherlands hasn't. In fact, commentators everywhere are yelling that they should make face masks obligatory, but they can't because the constitution prevents it (something about personal freedom of movement iirc). They have to pass a new law first and until then it's "strongly recommend".

For reasons I don't get, the Freedom House picture on this article shows NL as orange, meaning that freedom and democracy eroded during the pandemic. I really wonder what's that about, it seems to me that the government tries very hard (too hard, according to just about every columnist and talk show guest) to respect everybody's personal freedoms. I'm pretty impressed, actually.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#33

Post by xwdv »

m0zg wrote: post #18
roenxi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been a consistent theme to responses to major crisis in US has faced in my lifetime - every time, after the crisis the situation is worse than it was before the crisis. Not because of the crisis, but because of the response. 9/11, the 2008 recession (QE is still with us) and now COVID. The scars from the first two really should have healed a long time ago. It'll be a pretty dire future if the COVID response…

QE for 2008 recession will pale in comparison with QE for the pandemic. Luckily for us everyone else that matters (that is, who's not New Zealand) is equally fucked, so it's not entirely a losing proposition, but for someone of moderate means and with an income/savings that do not track the stock market these are perilous times indeed. Whatever cash or cash equivalent savings they had are turning into a pumpkin withi…

Not entirely. Any fixed rate loans such as the mortgages or student loans that people hold today will be much easier to pay when inflation soars. So go ahead, secure new loans, bundle home and auto and pay as slowly as possible until 25-50% inflation kicks in.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#35

Post by tsimionescu »

Zafira wrote: post #19
roenxi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been a consistent theme to responses to major crisis in US has faced in my lifetime - every time, after the crisis the situation is worse than it was before the crisis. Not because of the crisis, but because of the response. 9/11, the 2008 recession (QE is still with us) and now COVID. The scars from the first two really should have healed a long time ago. It'll be a pretty dire future if the COVID response…

You can see the failure of American leadership and an inability to engage in global crises in a decisive manner since Vietnam due to our inability to get over our incompetence and total misunderstanding of the political situation during the war there. I have a strong suspicion that American foreign policy wonks still don't understand why we failed in Vietnam; why applying the lens of containment and the same policy e…

The USA had an almost resounding success in Vietnam in its true objectives - it completely destroyed the (somewhat) functional North Vietnamese socialist state, and prevented any kind of spread of that idea in the area. It's true that 50 years later Vietnam is now a relatively well-functioning state again, but after the war in Vietnam there was no other attempt in the area.

The real failure in Vietnam was not retreating soon enough, and letting public opinion turn against the war - that did have a huge effect on future US public opinion about other wars, and could have been avoided if they had finished it earlier.

To be clear, I am extremely opposed for what they did in Vietnam and consider that the amount of war crimes and the fundamentally inhumane objectives are to be condemned. But it is pretty clear that the rational objectives that the architects of the war had set were achieved relatively quickly and efficiently, and with long-lasting effects. This was not a blunder.

Neither were Iraq or Afghanistan for that matter. The real blunders of US foreign policy have been the reinstatement of the Shah of Iran (which led to the Iranian revolution), and the continued failures of taking down Iran and Cuba.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#36

Post by ben_w »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #9

In a place like Uganda, an empowered strongman is a greater threat than the pandemic itself. In fact, worldwide, actual loss of life seems like one of the least of the threats emerging from the pandemic.

Over a million dead despite the lockdowns and travel restrictions and the working from home: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths

Strongmen can invent reasons from nothing, and often do.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#37

Post by dragonwriter »

m0zg wrote: post #28
astrobe_ wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is quite telling that the economic aspects almost immediately pops up. I believe that over the decades we have shifted more and more from "people first" to "economy first", to the point that sometimes it feels like people exist only to serve economy.

People _are_ the economy. If you don't think economic collapse does not affect "people" I invite you to read about the Great Depression.

> People _are_ the economy

Most popular economic performance metrics are quite distant from the real world effects on most people, largely because measures that incorporate distribution rather than simple aggregates are not popular.

So while the people are the economy in a very real sense, discussion of economic performance impacts of real or hypothetical policy tend to focus on impacts that have a distant, loose relationship to the experience of most people.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#38

Post by pjc50 »

stuaxo wrote: post #25

The UK may not be on "about the same" in a couple of months, we've just had the "spycops bill" where police and many other agencies will be able to commit crimes, without limitation as long as it's signed off.

Moody's downgraded the credit rating citing "governance issues" just now.

Re: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights

#40

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

Zafira wrote: post #19
roenxi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been a consistent theme to responses to major crisis in US has faced in my lifetime - every time, after the crisis the situation is worse than it was before the crisis. Not because of the crisis, but because of the response. 9/11, the 2008 recession (QE is still with us) and now COVID. The scars from the first two really should have healed a long time ago. It'll be a pretty dire future if the COVID response…

You can see the failure of American leadership and an inability to engage in global crises in a decisive manner since Vietnam due to our inability to get over our incompetence and total misunderstanding of the political situation during the war there. I have a strong suspicion that American foreign policy wonks still don't understand why we failed in Vietnam; why applying the lens of containment and the same policy e…

Domestic policy is the real problem. US foreign policy is always an extension of domestic policy anyway.
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