ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable • Hacker News Board

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#151

Post by oscargrouch » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:29 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #35

Basically we have 2 days to make Sciter open-source (GPL or MIT, depending on the amount collected). I think landing a mature cross-platform desktop app framework which is not beholden to any browser vendors is a huge goal. It will have significant consequences for the desktop app ecosystems on all major platforms. Please take part.

> think landing a mature cross-platform desktop app framework which is not beholden to any browser vendors is a huge goal.

So this adapts to different browser engines?

I think this will play in favor of Electron. Because its important to have more control, where you can customize and adapt the customize background engine.

The other thing to take into account is that Chrome itself will want to compete in this vertical, with little modifications a Javascript "application" that reuses the same browser engine you already have in your machine (BTW, I think there is something called 'Carlo' that basically achieve that).

This is a really brutal market to compete, so i'm inclined to think the opposite. Its hard to propose real value here , and if you don't do it, its hard to beat more well established propositions.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#152

Post by jlokier » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

c-smile wrote: post #141

tomelders wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would a Unity/Unreal engine style model work?

What is so special in Unity/Unreal engine style model in this regard?

I don't see how the Unity/Unreal suggestion helps with open sourcing if that's a goal here. Those engines are closed source.

For obtaining revenue and building a community their model works well. Just not an open source community.

Unity is free for people and companies to use if their revenue is For any business whose revenue then grows to > $100k/year, the business can easily afford the relatively low license fee of Unity; they won't mind. That fee goes up with increasing revenue of the business.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#153

Post by edko » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #63

edko wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the application. I did a couple of projects with Rust's web-view crate (which uses native Safari on MacOS, and native Edge on Windows). This gave me access to the full JS and the full Rust ecosystem. I think the possibilities were richer than if I had used Electron alone. For example, I was able to use the Tantivy crate, for very fast and powerful full-text search. All of this with a fraction of the exe…

I mean, no: you can do the same stuff with Electron, and you _won't_ be saddled with the issues inherent to WKWebView that Apple still hasn't fixed years later. There are also web features that Safari notoriously does not implement that you'd have access to in Edge. Webview2 on Windows is also going through a weird period where you can't rely on it "just working" without the end user installing a runtime. There is a…

I think the trick may be deciding what to do on the web side and what on the Rust side. In the case I was mentioning, I used the web side only for display. All the file handling, app updates, full-text search, etc., I did in Rust, and it worked very well on both MacOS and Windows (didn't check Linux).

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#154

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

CapriciousCptl wrote: post #132

c-smile wrote: post #110

Sciter's author here. What would be strategies in case of Kickstarter campaign will fail? In principle I can publish it for free as it is now but I definitely don't want it to be one more of abandon-ware projects that are open sourcing as the end of life. In general OS development is significantly more costly (for the author) as closed source one - for many reasons. So OS development needs steady stream of funding. S…

Problem is you're competing in a saturated market (Electron, React Native for Windows and macOS) and already tested your positioning once with the KickStarter campaign. Finding a way to fund this is going to be an uphill battle, although I like the creative ideas amadeuspagel mentioned. Like anything else, find a niche somewhere (possibly related to performance/memory for clients not using React) and serve it with a…

[deleted]

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#155

Post by madeofpalk » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

c-smile wrote: post #119

madeofpalk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until, at least, all major modern OSes come with a built in scriptable headless browser engine One of the main advantages of shipping your own browser like Electron or SciterJS is that it's a fixed, stable target where you can be a lot more confident about browser compatibility because you're only supporting a single browser + version.

#2. Browsers are for browsing - desktop and mobile application UI requires far more than that. Browsers are catching up of course but... Who would thought that the thing for reading pages will need access to your file system or make screenshots... #3. UI engine must have natural and effective means to use native code - to be embeddable and extendable by hosting application. In native app world you don't need WebAssem…

> #3. UI engine must have natural and effective means to use native code - to be embeddable and extendable by hosting application.

It does! Most browsers are written in "native code" and use it to do layout. When you use an field on a website, you get a natively rendered UI widget with native OS behaviour!

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#156

Post by Rebelgecko » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

nly wrote: post #42

artiscode wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the author wants to release Sciter under GPL, unless twice as many funds are raised, I fail to see the incentive for any company to fund this. GPL + commercial licensing model changes nothing for commercial product developers.

It would be surprising if the companies using Sciter (Norton, Avast, ESet, BitDefender) didn't have a copy of the source code with their commercial license, and the right to ship their own patched version with their software. If the project ever fizzled away they would probably just maintain it themselves, or migrate to Electron. Actually, it's not like these AV companies are known for their high quality product, so…

Why is sciter so popular with antivirus companies?

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#157

Post by qppo » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #96

invaliduser wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native c/c++ code linking maybe? Linking with native modules may be important to some projects, and that's complicated when the GPL is involved.

> Native c/c++ code linking maybe? Companies do C/C++ linking to Electron itself in a web app? I'm sorry, but I've never heard of such a thing. Do they also do C/C++ linking to the browser for the web app version fo the app? Web development must really have changed in recent years.

> Companies do C/C++ linking to Electron itself in a web app?

That's one of the selling points of Electron, write your frontend in whatever JS framework your frontend devs want to use, provide hooks through node modules to your application where the heavy lifting is done using whatever language/runtime you want.

> Do they also do C/C++ linking to the browser for the web app version fo the app?

If a web version can exists (Electron apps cover spaces that web apps can't), and it's identical to your Electron app, then your Electron app never needed to be written in the first place.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#158

Post by dzonga » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #152

c-smile wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is so special in Unity/Unreal engine style model in this regard?

I don't see how the Unity/Unreal suggestion helps with open sourcing if that's a goal here. Those engines are closed source. For obtaining revenue and building a community their model works well. Just not an open source community. Unity is free for people and companies to use if their revenue is For any business whose revenue then grows to > $100k/year, the business can easily afford the relatively low license fee of…

yeah, I agree Sciter is a beautiful piece of software. If It goes the way of unreal engine model. that would be great. projects not generating revenue will use the product, and projects with revenue will fund for development. everyone wins. and if you wanna see source code, you pony up some cash. I'm not too hung up on seeing the code, but rather would've something that works and performs. reason, linux lags behind on desktop is cause usability is not given priority, but code being open source is.

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#159

Post by sciurus » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

ptrott2017 wrote: post #14

Sciter is a very nice engine with a solid API/SDK and rock solid engineering behind it. For developers building efficient UI apps it can be a real alternative method to things like electron or as a lighter alternative to QT with QML script. However until now it was only available under commercial licence. Andrew Fedoniouk ( a.k.a. c-smile Sciter's original developer) has a kickstarter to fund open sourcing and suppor…

If they're still trying to fund open-sourcing it, what is in this repo?

Re: ElectronJS alternative: SciterJS – HTML/CSS/JS in 4.5 MB executable

#160

Post by pwdisswordfish4 » Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

artiscode wrote: post #32

ksec wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For $100K in total, a tiny marketing budget those companies could have shown some good will towards Open Source. I wonder if the author actually contacted those companies. That is less than $3K from each of those customers listed.

Given the author wants to release Sciter under GPL, unless twice as many funds are raised, I fail to see the incentive for any company to fund this. GPL + commercial licensing model changes nothing for commercial product developers.

Well Mozilla spends over $50 million year-over-year on non-development costs that have generally proven to be completely ineffective: their marketing budget. So a one-time $100k cost is a fraction of a percent of what they already squander on at least one program they get next to no ROI from; pay the one-time cost for this, and the marketing they get out of being the one that made it happen comes along for free.

And they outwardly profess to be in an uncomfortable position due to Blink's stranglehold over the hearts and minds of developers. Electron plays a major role there. Something like this would go further to support the Mozilla mission than anything they've done themselves (and done to themselves) over the last ~3 years...