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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

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Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#241

Post by tombh »

DFHippie wrote: post #237
tombh wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So everyone in the West is guilty for everything anyone in the West has ever done Of course that's nonsensical and I agree with it. But I wonder what you think when it's positively framed? So everyone in the west can _benefit_ from everything anyone in the West has ever done? That statement seems much closer to being universally accepted. Our rights to benefit from the fruits of Western "progress"; medicine, civil…

Yes, I thought about that. "My neighbor of the same religion and complexion won a Nobel! I'm so smart!" Everyone is happy to put a finger on the scale for their own benefit. But this is different from everyone in the West benefitting from the telephone or whatever. They do! So does everyone in Japan. As for compound interest on historical plunder, that's another matter. I'm as American as can be (and as British in an…

> But to a large extent that egg cannot be unscrambled

Well yes, that's exactly it! If we can't unscramble our eggs how can we can unscramble China's eggs?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#242

Post by dr_dshiv »

Subsentient wrote: post #150
dr_dshiv wrote: post #45

A utilitarian perspective judges morality based on total improvements in human wellbeing. From that perspective, is it appropriate to say that the Chinese government is the best government of all time? The sheer numbers of people who are improving is somewhat mind boggling. Yet, they make moral tradeoffs. We all make moral tradeoffs. I think it is important to keep their moral tradeoffs in context, lest we risk hypoc…

How dare you use the word "utilitarian" in such an atrocious context. I've been a "real" utilitarian for almost a decade (as much as is possible to be), and I consider China the single greatest threat to freedom and peace on the face of the planet. Can you seriously believe that China would not be far, far better off with a democratic regime? Yes, China has raised up their economy, but they've only done it for the sa…

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Here is a picture that shows china's growth and wellbeing (life satisfaction). Managing the affairs of nearly 1.5 billion people is quite an accomplishment. I like democracy, don't get me wrong -- but I think the Chinese government has demonstrated themselves to be rather benevolent, on the whole.

https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2017/04/Inc-vs-Happiness-...

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#243

Post by wolfhumble »

Fricken wrote: post #132
zpeti wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has concentration camps for blacks, native americans and immigrants, where they reeducate you to follow a tyrannical political system? Are they tracked through a social credit system where you can't get a train out of your town if it's bad? Where journalists repeteadly disappear? Where a treaty with the UK is ripped up and a city is invaded? Yeah. Accurate.

The US has 2 million people locked in cages. If you seek the freedom to be locked in a cage, America is clearly the better country. Of course, America has a much higher crime rate. Those who enjoy the freedom of getting murdered are better off in the USA. The crackdown in Xinjiang is a response to terrorist attacks. Both America and China are pretty reliable for grossly disproportionate responses to terrorist attacks…

Where do you find confirmed information that 2 million people are locked in cages?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#244

Post by oxymoran »

DavidSJ wrote: post #9
colechristensen wrote: post #4

Seeing this stated so clearly and prominently in an influential publication brings me hope. I am skeptical though that many people, especially those in the position to make influential choices, especially those who have profit tied up with China, will do anything other than see it and nod.

One possibility is that some economic pressure can be brought to bear by a Biden administration, perhaps in concert with other Western countries. Edited to add: This statement is political, but the genocide against Uyghurs is political too, and if we want to hold our leaders accountable to doing something about it, we need to acknowledge facts. Trump had previously indicated he wasn't interested in letting such matte…

What exactly is political about genocide? Genocide is a byproduct of ideological derangement.

American corporations are beholden to China’s massive market and Biden is beholden to American corporations. It is far more likely that Biden capitulates to China than puts any economic pressure on them.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#245

Post by dr_dshiv »

jimothyhalpert7 wrote: post #90
dr_dshiv wrote: post #45

A utilitarian perspective judges morality based on total improvements in human wellbeing. From that perspective, is it appropriate to say that the Chinese government is the best government of all time? The sheer numbers of people who are improving is somewhat mind boggling. Yet, they make moral tradeoffs. We all make moral tradeoffs. I think it is important to keep their moral tradeoffs in context, lest we risk hypoc…

Suggested reading: "The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas" by Ursula K. Le Guin. It's a short read.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ones_Who_Walk_Away_from_...

Is the implication that China is better or worse in this regard than the USA or Europe?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#246

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

luckylion wrote: post #179
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It surprises me that nativist anti-immigration demands are considered righteous in some regions and evil and backwards in others. Nativist anti-immigration demands in Europe or North America are generally criticized as hyperbole because immigration will not actually lead to demographic replacement in the near future, in spite of those activists’ claims. Furthermore, in Europe the immigrants invariably assimilate li…

> Nativist anti-immigration demands in Europe or North America are generally criticized as hyperbole because immigration will not actually lead to demographic replacement in the near future, in spite of those activists’ claims. The US is steering towards Majority Minority, is it not? > Furthermore, in Europe the immigrants invariably assimilate linguistically to their host country – by the second or third generation,…

> The US is steering towards Majority Minority, is it not?

It is not, at least not in the context of the present discussion. While whites are set to lose their majority, one of the minorities overtaking them are African-Americans, who cannot reasonably be called immigrants, because they were brought to the US against their will long ago, and they came before the late 19th-century and early 20th-century influx of European immigrants to which many white Americans trace their ancestry.

> That would be great, but isn't the case.

That certainly is the case. The second and third generations of immigrants into Europe are overwhelmingly assimilating to the host countries’ language. They may develop a new register of that European language that mixes in words and idioms from the language of their parent or grandparent’s country of origin, but few maintain a strong identification with the old language.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#247

Post by dr_dshiv »

wolfhumble wrote: post #243
Fricken wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has 2 million people locked in cages. If you seek the freedom to be locked in a cage, America is clearly the better country. Of course, America has a much higher crime rate. Those who enjoy the freedom of getting murdered are better off in the USA. The crackdown in Xinjiang is a response to terrorist attacks. Both America and China are pretty reliable for grossly disproportionate responses to terrorist attacks…

Where do you find confirmed information that 2 million people are locked in cages?

2.3 million, from Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_....

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#248

Post by wyuenho »

ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #69
zpeti wrote: post #18

“Here's my strategy on the Cold War: we win, they lose.” ― Ronald Reagan I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that this strategy has to be adopted with China as well. They are out to win, to dominate the world, and they won't back down, and they will use any method to do it. And ask yourself if the world you see inside China is what you want spreading.

I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but I think there's a massive anti-China narrative on HN. I see so much talk that's based off of people's view from an entirely Western media-centred POV. There's so much more to what's going on. There's a lot of pot calling the kettle black too. There's a lot of good stuff in the TLS from a few weeks back. Han is the cultural race/ethnicity in mainland China. [0] It's about 92%…

You don't know them well enough. A random poll of any mainland Chinese population short of those on the periphery currently being persecuted, I guarantee you they either support what the Chinese gov is doing to the Uyghurs or pretend they don't know what's happening. China is the new Nazi Germany.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#249

Post by free_rms »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #206
powerapple wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No Iraqi is comparing US to Iraq. I don't understand why there is always a contest between US and China. US is a developed country, and China is a developing country. It is not a beauty contest. Also there does have to be only one winner. Maybe, just maybe, there is no need to mess up another country.

Genuine question: what is it that qualifies China as a developing nation? The last thing on my mind when I think of China is "its a developing nation." China seems to own quite an empire.

China is a US population-worth of developed nation and twice that of developing nation, roughly speaking.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#250

Post by oxymoran »

DavidSJ wrote: post #138
abc-xyz wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly did Biden do to stand up to China during the Obama/Biden administration (or throughout his political career)? Here’s an incomplete list of things Trump has done: - He refers to the Wuhan Virus as the China/Chinese Virus (CCP is trying very hard from distancing themselves from responsibility; they won’t even let us into Wuhan to investigate). - He started a trade war with China, which has forced companies…

I'm referring specifically to the Uyghur situation. Trump may have done all sorts of things China doesn't like, and I'm not interested in getting into a general political debate about the merits of each of those things, but he hasn't done much about the Uyghur situation, aside from when his arm's been twisted by Congress. His personal concern in Chinese trade policy seems mainly to be mercantilist (minimizing trade d…

What exactly can he do outside of economics sanction? It’s either that or saber rattling. We don’t want a war with China, that would be a global catastrophe. We just want to keep them in check long enough for communism to inevitably collapse once again.
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