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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

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Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#141

Post by ASlave2Gravity »

pistoriusp wrote: post #128
ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but I think there's a massive anti-China narrative on HN. I see so much talk that's based off of people's view from an entirely Western media-centred POV. There's so much more to what's going on. There's a lot of pot calling the kettle black too. There's a lot of good stuff in the TLS from a few weeks back. Han is the cultural race/ethnicity in mainland China. [0] It's about 92%…

Anti-China (The government) is not Anti-Chinese (The people). I'm South African. I grew up in Apartheid and I'm white. It ended when I was 10. Am I a bad person? No. Are my parent's bad people? No. Were my Grandparent's bad people? No. The Apartheid Government of South Africa was terrible. Especially to black people, but also to white people who didn't toe the line. Sanctions were very effective.

Ah, thanks for sharing.

Yes, I'd agree on all counts. As I said in another comment, we need to be so careful with what we are saying. I just get really upset when the anti-China-goverment narrative spills into an anti-China-people one.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#142

Post by AmericanChopper »

goku99 wrote: post #12

I don't understand what's the point of UN when these things are happening in a permanent UNSC member country. This C has been causing nuisance to their neighbors all the time. They Debt-Trap poor nations and exploit them. From Mongols to India, every neighbor has a problem, they are probably most worst neighbor you could get. Recently it was in news with yet another conflict with India[1]. This needs to stop. Entire…

> I don't understand what's the point of UN when these things are happening in a permanent UNSC member country.

It’s a venue for political theatre. Otherwise it’s a pretty good system for funnelling money to corrupt regimes and other NGOs.

The argument that it’s an essential tool for diplomatic relations is pretty much bunk. No country relies on the UN to have diplomatic relations with any other country.

It’s predecessor, the League of Nations, had the decency to dissolve itself after realising how useless it was. The only difference between the LON and the UN, is that the UN has never got around to doing that, despite failing to achieve anything.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#143

Post by levosmetalo »

baybal2 wrote: post #119
PeterisP wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of UN and UNSC is as a venue to talk about these things and negotiate solutions - it's not like it ever was an option to have an UN that can make binding decisions on the major powers, no major sovereign power would ever agree to that. The default position is that a sovereign nation can do as it pleases; if other nations does not like it, they are welcome to try and force it to change with military power -…

> The point of UN and UNSC is as a venue to talk about these things and negotiate solutions - it's not like it ever was an option to have an UN that can make binding decisions on the major powers, no major sovereign power would ever agree to that. You know, the original intent of UN was of an organisation to do exactly this. After the second world war, the determination was made that the no pill is too bitter to prev…

And which country was the first one to start dropping bombs on other sovereign countries without a UN mandate? If I remember correctly, it was not China. They never dropped a single bomb on any other country.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#144

Post by powerapple »

pistoriusp wrote: post #128
ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but I think there's a massive anti-China narrative on HN. I see so much talk that's based off of people's view from an entirely Western media-centred POV. There's so much more to what's going on. There's a lot of pot calling the kettle black too. There's a lot of good stuff in the TLS from a few weeks back. Han is the cultural race/ethnicity in mainland China. [0] It's about 92%…

Anti-China (The government) is not Anti-Chinese (The people). I'm South African. I grew up in Apartheid and I'm white. It ended when I was 10. Am I a bad person? No. Are my parent's bad people? No. Were my Grandparent's bad people? No. The Apartheid Government of South Africa was terrible. Especially to black people, but also to white people who didn't toe the line. Sanctions were very effective.

The problem is most Chinese approves Chinese government, and why people from outside keep shouting 'you are not happy' to them.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#145

Post by ASlave2Gravity »

Nevaeh wrote: post #102
ASlave2Gravity wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but I think there's a massive anti-China narrative on HN. I see so much talk that's based off of people's view from an entirely Western media-centred POV. There's so much more to what's going on. There's a lot of pot calling the kettle black too. There's a lot of good stuff in the TLS from a few weeks back. Han is the cultural race/ethnicity in mainland China. [0] It's about 92%…

History has shown that the CCP will oppress the Han chinese if they do not bow down to their ideology. "approximately 65,000 Falun Gong practitioners had been killed for their organs between 2000 and 2008" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

Have you ever met a Falun Gong practitioner?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#146

Post by Open-Sourcery »

whoevercares wrote: post #72
goku99 wrote: post #12

I don't understand what's the point of UN when these things are happening in a permanent UNSC member country. This C has been causing nuisance to their neighbors all the time. They Debt-Trap poor nations and exploit them. From Mongols to India, every neighbor has a problem, they are probably most worst neighbor you could get. Recently it was in news with yet another conflict with India[1]. This needs to stop. Entire…

What’s the point of you second anecdote[2]??? Chinese people suffered the first remember and get it in control. they are well deserved for whatever vacation they want to have. The second half of your comment looks like provocation. As for the “worst” neighbor part, you can’t just focus on one side of the story. Check the economic statistics and ask the business owners in those neighbor countries if they think China i…

What I was thinking as well. "How dare they holiday in their own country where COVID is under control!". We have everything pretty under control in NZ and people are traveling domestically, but I would like to think we are pretty good neighbours...

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#147

Post by luckylion »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #34

Often in discussions like this, someone claims that the Uighur crackdown is necessary “because Islamist extremism”. I strongly encourage everyone to familiarize themselves with the history of the Uighurs under Chinese rule, because this isn’t really about Islam. Namely, there used to be a very strong secular movement among the Uighurs, whose main complaint wasn’t the inability to practise Islam (some of these activis…

> resisting the heavy Han Chinese settlement that would lead to the Uighurs becoming a minority in their own province

It surprises me that nativist anti-immigration demands are considered righteous in some regions and evil and backwards in others.

I understand the general history like you do though, I don't disagree. Radical Uighur groups did help China make the case with their knife attacks on civilians to be painted as "just another brand of islamic terrorism".

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#148

Post by baybal2 »

dalbasal wrote: post #76
goku99 wrote: post #12

I don't understand what's the point of UN when these things are happening in a permanent UNSC member country. This C has been causing nuisance to their neighbors all the time. They Debt-Trap poor nations and exploit them. From Mongols to India, every neighbor has a problem, they are probably most worst neighbor you could get. Recently it was in news with yet another conflict with India[1]. This needs to stop. Entire…

The UN(SC) isn't and has never been a "just solution" or even idealistic in any way. It was and is a way to stop (ultimately nuclear) confrontation between members to prevent WWIII.It has been instrumental to this goal, and this is the actual purpose of the UN. The General Assembly is a nicety. At different points in time, any member could have had such charges like you make leveled at them. This doesn't mean crimes…

> It was and is a way to stop (ultimately nuclear) confrontation between members to prevent WWIII.It has been instrumental to this goal, and this is the actual purpose of the UN. The General Assembly is a nicety.

No, it is not. The exact purpose of UN's founding was for it to be an instrument with which the West would smack down the next third reich wannabe country before it gets too powerful.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#149

Post by whoevercares »

sasaf5 wrote: post #97
Miner49er wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the US really much better than China? We do similar to black, Native American, and immigrant people. I'm not sure I want either winning in their current state.

Yes, just the freedom of talking about the issue already makes the US much better than China.

That’s the key. Western people VALUE this freedom of speech A LOT, but it’s not a prevailing concern for even most Chinese citizens.Years of enlightenment and education are needed to raise that awareness. Sadly CCP knows how to prevent you do it.

Imagine 0.01% of Chinese population have the awareness and willing to fight for it, that’ll be a huge deal already.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#150

Post by Subsentient »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #45

A utilitarian perspective judges morality based on total improvements in human wellbeing. From that perspective, is it appropriate to say that the Chinese government is the best government of all time? The sheer numbers of people who are improving is somewhat mind boggling. Yet, they make moral tradeoffs. We all make moral tradeoffs. I think it is important to keep their moral tradeoffs in context, lest we risk hypoc…

How dare you use the word "utilitarian" in such an atrocious context.

I've been a "real" utilitarian for almost a decade (as much as is possible to be), and I consider China the single greatest threat to freedom and peace on the face of the planet.

Can you seriously believe that China would not be far, far better off with a democratic regime?

Yes, China has raised up their economy, but they've only done it for the sake of power, and hundreds of millions of Chinese still live in severe poverty.

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