Good sleep, good learning, good life • Hacker News Board

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#111

Post by moltar » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:10 AM UTC

rileyteige wrote: post #60

jmnicolas wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One reason I never want to work for a normal company is that I wouldn't be able to take naps. It depends on the culture: I work for an absolutely normal company in France (I'm the sole dev) and at noon I go home (10 min drive) cook my meal and eat leisurely, then get a 30 minutes nap and go back to work at 2 PM. Pay isn't great, but quality of life is high.

I visited France a few years ago. It was incredible how e.g. the entire Vieux Port market in Marseille would close down from roughly 1-3pm. Just about nothing was open. Storefronts, restaurants, all closed. Seemed like a very peaceful place to make a living. I guess money's not everything.

Have not been to that specific market, but I know other market sellers (farmers) in Canada.

Probably what you are not seeing is that these market sellers woke up at 4 am to get ready for the market, and drive > 1 hour from the rural areas to beat traffic and setup shop.

Then they take rest 1-3pm, and then continue until 6-7pm. Only to get home at 8pm and then still have to make dinner and rest.

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#112

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:48 AM UTC

m463 wrote: post #71

muzani wrote: post #58

This has been one of my favourite articles for years, on the reading list, but never had the time to fully read such a behemoth. Some stuff I got out of this: 1. The ideal sleep pattern is sleeping when tired and walking up without an alarm. 2. Biphasic is recommended. Homeostatic is how easy it is to initiate sleep, circadian is how easy it is to maintain it. Circadian cycle is usually nightly, homeostatic peaks wit…

naps are sometimes great, but sometimes if I don't set an alarm I end up feeling lousy. Don't know if it means sleep or something else is out of whack and I need a nap too much. the pandemic has let me play with sleep and sometimes it's to let it gradually drift forwards an hour each day and wrap around. (schedule meetings are the only trouble spot to that experiment)

Bad post-nap feeling is very likely sleep inertia: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Sleep_inertia

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#113

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 8:59 AM UTC

mofeeta wrote: post #108

rajlego wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the Discord SuperMemo community has grown actually a fair bit over the last year: https://discord.gg/vUQhqCT I myself only started using SuperMemo over the last 2 years but I think in the last 1, I've seen lots of friends get massively better and I'm looking forward to what we create over the next 5 years. In terms of new implementations, one thing I'm excited about is dendro: https://dendro.com.au/ . It's made…

I'm curious what you've seen in your friends that would make them seem massively better. I've thought of trying out supermemo, so I'd like to hear how it's helped you.

Ah, when I said massively better I was mainly referring to in terms of SuperMemo skill. I started talking a lot to them around February which is also when we all started to improve but I didn't know them well enough last year to be able to do a before/after comparison.

I can comment on myself though. I'm very low conscientiousness/have ADHD (without conscientiousness issues I'd probably have gotten 3-4 times as much done as I otherwise have). Around 2 years ago, and much of last year, I was pretty miserable. It's hard to say exactly what my thought process was back then (since I think differently now) but I got stressed very easily, could not message people without bad anxiety/overthinking, was in poor fitness, got little done, etc. etc..

I'm not sure what percentage of it I can attribute to supermemo (since you can't tell where memories come from) and I still struggle a fair bit but I've been able to get significantly better at managing stress sanely, not stress about talking to people so much, improve fitness and other lifestyle changes. A lot of these seem like they'd be things you just sort of do build but for the stress stuff in particular, I think I've been influenced heavily by stuff I've learned (though a big part of that influence also comes from creator of supermemo himself, both over email and from supermemo.guru). If I get back to incremental writing, I think you'd be able to see some of the benefits I've had in terms of creativity. Some days I can't sleep because there are just too many ideas popping up to be written down. Unfortunately I haven't gotten into the habit yet though I plan to establish a few other baser habits (like better sleep, ironically) and after to move back to it.

If you want to hear a miracle story where I started using supermemo and then wrote 10 research papers and completed lots of huge projects, you won't find that with me (I think 5-10 years from now you might). I don't regret it all though because the delta from where I started and to where I am now is huge (though it's hard to feel it day to day because of hedonic treadmill).

I would note, if you do try SuperMemo, maintain skepticism. One mistake I made especially when I first started is just importing neat things and memorizing them, without thinking about application. I'm certain that there are users at least 3x better than me, entirely because they're good at being selective/have more base knowledge so they can get rid of more overlapping inputs.

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#114

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:06 AM UTC

wenc wrote: post #83

rajlego wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried SuperMemo? Intervals matter because they correlate with rep loads. The more accurate the intervals, the lower daily rep loads can be. The SuperMemo creator has spent 3 decades and collected plenty of data, it's hard to imagine that he wouldn't be able to improve on an algorithm from 1990.

I admit I have not. SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. (Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, th…

> SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much.

Agree. Also agree that actually using something is more important than how good it is. I just strongly object to:

>outdated algorithm corresponding to worse or better results to me is neither here nor there. There's evidence that the repetition interval itself is not the critical factor in retention.

claiming that algorithm does not matter, especially from people without experience actually using both.

>(Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, the word "oficina" looks like "office" to my English brain, but the word actually means "mechanic's workshop" in Portuguese. Or "pretender", which looks like pretend in English, actually means "intend". SRS helps me drill the Portuguese meaning into my skull. I use SRS to memorize bits of knowledge that don't fit anywhere and that are hard to create a context for.)

you look to be describing exactly interference: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Interference you might find 20 rules article useful for it: https://www.supermemo.com/en/archives1990-2015/articles/20ru...

>I have looked into SuperMemo in the past because I was attracted to the prospect of a general pro-level memorization tool. I use complex pro tools all the time and was not fazed by the learning curve, but I felt the UI was, let's say, overfitted to the creator's personal preferences. It was a purely emotional decision but I knew I wouldn't use it regularly, and the best SRS tool is one that one would use over one that one would not.

That is understandable. I will say: I personally like the interface. To anyone reading this, I might seem insane but for a high-level user it just clicks and works (with few quirks here and there). Likely because I lack imagination I can't imagine how I'd make it look nicer while still maximizing usability.

It is of course terrible to share with newcomers. But I've taught many people SuperMemo, I think the main issue with the UI for most people is just that you don't understand it. Once you get over that I think it's not so bad.

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#115

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:08 AM UTC

throw14082020 wrote: post #102

Wow, that website is great. Thanks! It goes over learning/ schooling as well. I'd be interested to see how innovators are trying to solve the "10 mortal sins of schooling" or 50 bad habits learned at school.

Are you familiar with democratic schools or sudburry schools? They give children near complete freedom and are basically the answer to schooling issues. Unfortunately, they seem to have not spread too widely for issues I don't understand (likely funding and lack of understanding of learning from adults).

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#116

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #50

maverickJ wrote: post #15

Sleep is incredibly important for forming new connections in the brain. I just want to add another aspect of learning; The importance of focus. I will start by saying: "Do not engage the mind in the intense pursuit of too many things at once; especially things that have no relation to one another" A couple of questions that can help for solve the above issue are: 1.How many subjects am I currently learning intensely?…

> "Do not engage the mind in the intense pursuit of too many things at once; especially things that have no relation to one another" The author "incremental reading" technique directly contradicts this. I don't know who's right though. Here is a YT video of him watching a couple seconds of dozens of YT videos to extract knowledge : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOJyO7QDEX4 I'll admit it seems absolutely counter int…

I would say, op is right when learning by hand. Managing more than say 3 books at once or more than 1-3 subjects is impossible. Tackling too many things at once is easy recipe for madness. (these numbers are vague estimates and not from experience; I have near 0 non-supermemo decent learning experience)

When it comes to SuperMemo though, you're not managing learning. You more put in what you want to learn, push a lever or two (priority/intervals) and supermemo takes care of the rest. SuperMemo is way less stressful than normal learning because when you use it and are doing reps, you can focus as much as you want on what's in front of you and move on when you want to. The costs of switching between things are near 0 since you'll always see the thing again (unless you decide not to).

For working on more than 1 project at once, I think that's pushing it though with incremental writing (https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Incremental_writing) it becomes more feasible to work on multiple things in parallel incrementally (also enjoyably).

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#117

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:20 AM UTC

jmnicolas wrote: post #86

japhyr wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I committed to living without an alarm clock in college, 20+ years ago. I fought long battles with my snooze button, and realized I was spending hours each morning hitting the snooze button. I realized if I just didn't set an alarm I'd probably get up later than I usually set my alarm for, but earlier than I typically got out of bed. It worked; I started waking up refreshed, and happy to get out of bed in the morning…

This doesn't work for me. Left to my own schedule, I go to bed later and later and wake up later and later. The thing that works for me is waking up (with an alarm) every day at the same time (6 o'clock) including week-ends. I have a "dawn simulator" clock so most of the time I'm already awake when the alarm rings. But no matter what, when it rings I get out of bed immediately. You snooze you loose!

You likely have DSPS, worth taking a look at: https://supermemo.guru/wiki/Curing_DSPS_and_insomnia which has many helpful suggestions (that could work better than alarm clock)

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#118

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

sradman wrote: post #21

roel_v wrote: post #12

It's been a while since there have been posts on Supermemo here (meta: I miss the times when HN was mostly about bootstrapping software businesses, nootropics and self hacking), so I'm wondering - are there people who (still) use Supermemo or similar software for actual learning, and not memorizing for its own sake, as a party trick basically (which I feel is its main use case, at least in the way it's in the news)?…

The SuperMemo algorithms [1] have been re-implemented in more modern software such as Anki [2]. These systems are popular for goal oriented learning like studying for a test or learning a new language. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperMemo#Algorithms [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anki_(software)

I would note that modern here should be taken to mean in interface alone. SuperMemo is still actively being worked on and looks like it will continue being worked on and improved for the foreseeable feature.

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#119

Post by rajlego » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

bostonvaulter2 wrote: post #104

bd_beats wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anki's SRS algotihm is based on SM2 and is woefully outdated in comparison to SM's SRS algo. Additionally SM is much more feature rich once you get into incremental reading and fully optimizing your learning experience. Sure the UI isn't a nice flashy Electron.js app, but SM is a titan compared the terminate that is Anki.

Looks like SuperMemo is windows only which is a deal-breaker for me.

scroll to the bottom of supermemo.wiki/learn, there are some suggestions on using it on non-windows platforms

Re: Good sleep, good learning, good life

#120

Post by wenc » Mon, Oct 12, 2020, 4:10 PM UTC

rajlego wrote: post #114

wenc wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit I have not. SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. (Example: I learn through cognitive dissonance so I use it primarily to deprogram certain associations in my head. For instance, th…

> SRS isn't my main method for learning -- I use a variety of other methods. I only use SRS for (independent and disconnected) atomic-type knowledge that I need to drill. My rep loads are generally not onerous, so it's not a problem that necessarily affects me too much. Agree. Also agree that actually using something is more important than how good it is. I just strongly object to: >outdated algorithm corresponding t…

> claiming that algorithm does not matter, especially from people without experience actually using both.

Here's the basis of that claim [1].

That said, I have not tested it empirically myself so I think that is cause for moderating my claim -- I place a high value on empirically-tested knowledge. Take my claim as partially withdrawn.

But to make the argument more precise, an algorithm producing a lower rep load because it uses intervals more efficiently does not imply it produces a significant delta-difference in retention. It merely means the algorithm lets you fit more stuff into a memorization schedule. That seems to be to be quite different from improving retention itself of say a smaller inventory of facts. Just wanted to be sure about the actual claim that is made.

p.s. one of your links is broken.

[1] http://learninglab.psych.purdue.edu/downloads/2011_Karpicke_...