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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#561

Post by efitz »

FireBeyond wrote: post #484
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple absolutely shouldn't meddle in Belarus's politics. But if Belarusian users are using their platform to incite violence, as Apple says they are, don't they have a moral responsibility to try and do something about it?

They're using Telegram. Not Apple's platform. If Telegram was a Windows, or even a web app, should Microsoft be threatening to block Windows users from being able to access the app or even website?

I think this is probably the best argument against platforms with locked app stores- civil liberties. The only reason that Belarus can ask Apple to ask (force) Telegram to do this, is because there is no reasonable alternative for most people to get an application onto their phone. If I could easily install other app stores onto my phone, then government requests like this would not be effective.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#562

Post by kazinator »

boogies wrote: post #560
_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

(offtopic) > (google translate) DeepL is a much better translator, at least for the languages I know and according to all comparisons I’ve heard others make, btw (though I don’t know if Yandex Translate is better for Russian).

You're right. I just tried this, into Japanese:

"I cannot believe you would say that to me."

It came up with:

私にそんなことを言うなんて信じられないわ

Holy crap, complete with a disparaging なんて, and a nice わ sentence-ender to make it a feminine sounding complaint.

I'm almost sensing like the thing is tying to tell me, "here is how your boring English sounds if it is turned into line from a J-drama."

Was this trained using subtitle databases, I wonder. It's as if a mediocre English subtitle was found, similar to my text, and the corresponding original line had been retrieved.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#563

Post by vr46 »

wussboy wrote: post #394
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's true - and I'm not going to get into that debate here - surely that doesn't mean that every company has to allow their products to become tools of mass violence.

Violence may be seen as legitimate, but it shouldn’t be seen as effective. In a study of over 300 movements, non violent protests are twice as effective. https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/file...

Non-violence is only effective where the oppressor is vulnerable to moral pressure. In many cases, the oppressor is not.

(Not stating my personal examples, too contentious, but I'm sure you could find your own).

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#564

Post by rocqua »

Causality1 wrote: post #494
rzwitserloot wrote: post #229

This keeps being posted and keeps disappearing, so I'm going to not link to it, but when you search around, a post on telegram by Pavel Durov explains that apple has in fact made 2 demands: Take down the private information __and__ in addition to that, do so silently: Do not replace it with a notice explaining which part of apple's guidelines were breached, because that would be 'irrelevant' info. Apparently, whilst…

Telegram is small enough for Apple to bully. Imagine if Apple tried to force Twitter to censor every "cancel crusade" or be removed from the App Store.

Exactly? Why does Apple get to moderate Telegram's users?

If you let a communication app onto your platform, you are letting people use that to communicate. It is not up to apple to moderate telegram. It is up to telegram.

If apple wanted to, they could argue "Telegram is so badly moderated we want them off our platform". But that is very different from saying "If you do not take these specific moderation actions, we will kick you off our platform". Unless telegram was already on very thin ice with Apple, this is a massive over-reach by Apple.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#565

Post by ytwySXpMbS »

gentleman11 wrote: post #559
dan-robertson wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One issue is that public attitudes to doxxing vary between places. What is unacceptable in America may be considered more normal elsewhere. In this specific situation there’s a pretty obvious power imbalance where the public do not wear masks and the authorities would be able to track them down and oppress them later (or just do what they currently do and grab them from the streets at the time). The threat of unmaski…

Mentioning public attitudes as a focus for discussion is basically appeal to authority: just because some other group here or elsewhere thinks something is good or bad, doesn’t make it so. The ideas below that part stand just fine without talking about popularity of norms

I think it's more to highlight the fact that there are differing opinions, and American sensibilities shouldn't necessarily dictate what people in separate countries can do. I see no mention of popularity.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#566

Post by dane-pgp »

zepto wrote: post #347
boudin wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to match this post, where apple is asking to remove telegram groups used to de-anonymize law enforcement members. Apple could do something really simple if they wanted to not interfeer with how people organize their fight: allow to install apps outside of the app store. This would force law enforcement to deal with Telegram directly rather than being able to take advantage of apple's own authoritarian way…

It would also allow governments to force people to install tracking apps, as they do in parts of China. It’s not simple.

Apple could still retain the capability to delete malicious apps from phones (even apps that weren't installed via the App Store).

Presumably Belarus would then make a demand that Apple delete Telegram from people's phones as it is "malicious", but I'd hope that forcing a company to delete things from someone's phone is legally harder than forcing them to hide things on their own servers.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#567

Post by noisem4ker »

drummer wrote: post #361
redwood wrote: post #164

This makes me sick to my stomach. My wife just got her third Apple product. We've been happy customers. I've been following the news out of Belarus even if there isn't much hope at least the world has been witnessing. How dare they. This is just appalling.

Apple has lost its way. The Apple of today is far from what it originally was, pro freedom and anti authoritarianism. They turned into the monsters they set out to fight.

When were they actually "pro freedom and anti authoritarianism", outside of their marketing pitch?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#568

Post by uzakov »

toyg wrote: post #464
uzakov wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the rent contract. If, as you say Apple is like a landlord, Apple can demand specific things in the contract (ie no pets) and the person renting needs to comply. Not getting into the moral side of the argument of Apple Vs Telegram but want to point out that the landlord example isn't applicable in my opinion.

I don’t think there is anything about impeding political protesters in the Apple EULA. Even if there were something, certain things are typically protected in law; in most western countries, for example, a landlord cannot forbid a shop from serving members of a specific religion or of a specific ethnicity.

I am not saying anything about political protesters, only commenting on the example you used (landlord one) to say it's not applicable in this case.

> Even if there were something, certain things are typically protected in law; in most western countries, for example, a landlord cannot forbid a shop from serving members of a specific religion or of a specific ethnicity

Of course, but the landlord can forbid a shop from having any animals inside the shop for example, except the service animals ofc or to say that only specific type of shop can operate on the ground (prior to signing the contract). This is a more complex issue than "landlord example"

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#569

Post by dane-pgp »

foepys wrote: post #443
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Apple is now in charge of deciding whether elections are legitimate? It's weird how people in this thread are zigzagging between saying Apple has too much corporate power and Apple needs much more. Does every country in the world really have to be a democracy? Remember how the Arab Spring turned out?

> So Apple is now in charge of deciding whether elections are legitimate? Don't worry, Apple doesn't have to decide anything here. The US government already did.

I'm not sure why this is being downvoted, but perhaps people don't believe the claim that the US government has formally taken a side on the legitimacy of the elections:

https://www.axios.com/us-lukashenko-president-belarus-353ed2...

It seems to me that this offers a clever way out for Apple: If Lukashenko isn't the legitimate president of Belarus, then the "police" following his orders to attack protesters are not police at all, but terrorists; and Telegram is helping to bring them to the attention of the legitimate authorities of the president in exile.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#570

Post by nobody9999 »

thatjamesdude wrote: post #495
toyg wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just beef with Telegram. That’s where the content is hosted. Apple as a distributor should have NO relevance to this. Apple is like a landlord who legally rented his shop to people who run it as a bar in which some people might meet to discuss protests. Should the police even call the landlord? Should the landlord act on this info?

Let's not twist the argument. Those channels exist to spread private, identifiable data and this breaks the law. A better version of your argument is Apple is the landlord where people are planning lynchings. Again, I side with the Belarusians. But pretending this is different to China's doxxing of Uighurs is naive

>Those channels exist to spread private, identifiable data and this breaks the law.

Out of curiosity, to which law are you referring?

I'm not being snarky here, I'm just not clear about which law(s) are being broken.

According to the Wikipedia page for Telegram[0], Telegram's team is based in Dubai, and the company is registered in the UK and the US.

IANAL, nor am I any sort of expert on US, UK or Dubai law. If you could expand on this, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegram_(software)#History

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