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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#551

Post by swiley »

afwe wrote: post #81
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #6

Through what right or means can Apple demand this, though? Telegram is a platform for user-generated content and it seems odd for Apple to single-out those 3 channels/groups specifically - what about the hundreds of thousands of other objectionable groups on Telegram? And why Telegram in particular? Why doesn't Apple give the same ultimatum to Facebook to pressure them to block access to militant ethnonationalist gro…

>Through what right or means can Apple demand this, though? The App Store is theirs and they will kick you out if they don't like you. Isn't that good enough?

Everyone else's iphone isn't theirs though. Apple's abuse of their users is directly contributing to the consolidation of power in the world, which will likely lead to violence against and abuse of poor people.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#552

Post by Dylan16807 »

stefan_ wrote: post #285
_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

In what particular hellhole have I even landed that we are now using the terms of a Twitter fight to discuss brutal, indiscriminate suppression of protests? Applying "doxxing" rules to police on the job in public must be the most absurd perversion of the term ever. Why on earth would we grant privacy to public servants entrusted with the force monopoly?

> In what particular hellhole have I even landed that we are now using the terms of a Twitter fight to discuss brutal, indiscriminate suppression of protests?

I don't see any part of the comment doing that. Can you quote it?

I see internet terms being applied to the actions against the police, and those actions aren't brutal at all.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#553

Post by zepto »

croissants wrote: post #367
zepto wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you planning to dox Apple employees? That seems like the logical conclusion if you think they have blood on their hands. It seems like a little much to call Apple an ‘enabler’ for being against doxing. Just because protesters use a tactic doesn’t mean everyone needs to support it, especially if it is a tacit call to violence.

Is the argument you're making "if you see someone doing something bad, you should not only call it out as such, but also be willing to do something bad to stop it"? That doesn't make sense to me unless there's really no other option to prevent a much greater evil. I think we're still at the point in this story where normal consumer and media pressure can be effective.

You edited this a lot since my previous comment, but it still doesn’t seem obvious this it’s relevant.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#554

Post by Dylan16807 »

zepto wrote: post #373
croissants wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the argument you're making "if you see someone doing something bad, you should not only call it out as such, but also be willing to do something bad to stop it"? That doesn't make sense to me unless there's really no other option to prevent a much greater evil. I think we're still at the point in this story where normal consumer and media pressure can be effective.

I don’t know why you would think it’s my argument. It seems a lot closer to the argument DoingIsLearning is making about why “Apple employees” have blood on their hands.

You said the "logical conclusion" is "doxxing" them. You haven't explained why, and it's not at all obvious why you would say that. So yes people think that's your argument. If you are arguing something different, you need to explain better.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#555

Post by Dylan16807 »

pleasebegood wrote: post #48
spacemanmatt wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram is Apple's own platform? Are you saying Apple is involved in something illegal by allowing Telegram to distribute software through the App Store, since people use it to dox Putin-aligned police in Belarus?

There is already a precedent for apple to not allow apps that doesn't align with its content policies even if user generated. Anything NSFW is not allowed by default and without explicit warnings. Porn is not allowed. Drug stores are not allowed. Gab is not allowed. Imageboards aren't. Why would this be different? Apple owns the app store and the iOS platform. They have a duty to protect their customers from clicking…

This argument is completely undermined by Safari.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#556

Post by zepto »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #554
zepto wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know why you would think it’s my argument. It seems a lot closer to the argument DoingIsLearning is making about why “Apple employees” have blood on their hands.

You said the "logical conclusion" is "doxxing" them. You haven't explained why, and it's not at all obvious why you would say that. So yes people think that's your argument. If you are arguing something different, you need to explain better.

I actually did explain:

Here’s a real quote from my comment, rather than a few words out of context in quote marks:

“That seems like the logical conclusion if you think they have blood on their hands.”

It’s obvious that I am not saying they should be doxed.

But sure - if people are just reacting to a few words without reading the whole comment or what is a reply to, then they won’t understand.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#557

Post by Dylan16807 »

zepto wrote: post #556
Dylan16807 wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said the "logical conclusion" is "doxxing" them. You haven't explained why, and it's not at all obvious why you would say that. So yes people think that's your argument. If you are arguing something different, you need to explain better.

I actually did explain: Here’s a real quote from my comment, rather than a few words out of context in quote marks: “That seems like the logical conclusion if you think they have blood on their hands .” It’s obvious that I am not saying they should be doxed. But sure - if people are just reacting to a few words without reading the whole comment or what is a reply to, then they won’t understand.

No, that doesn't explain. Why does blood on their hands make doxxing mandatory for everyone that believes that? Nobody has said anything like that except you.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#558

Post by fimdomeio »

The question is who is responsible for inciting violence? The people that post the messages, telegram for allowing people using their platform to post some messages, or apple for allowing an app to allow it's users to post a message. Why does apple have anything to say in this matter. It sounds crazy to me.

Or maybe, who knows, the violence is being caused by an opressive regime. Since Apple feels it as the right to interveen is it also taking actions agains the Belarus government?

Apple please let me know to which mail should I start sending the mail messages I send from my macbook, so I can get your approval.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#559

Post by gentleman11 »

dan-robertson wrote: post #234
_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

One issue is that public attitudes to doxxing vary between places. What is unacceptable in America may be considered more normal elsewhere. In this specific situation there’s a pretty obvious power imbalance where the public do not wear masks and the authorities would be able to track them down and oppress them later (or just do what they currently do and grab them from the streets at the time). The threat of unmaski…

Mentioning public attitudes as a focus for discussion is basically appeal to authority: just because some other group here or elsewhere thinks something is good or bad, doesn’t make it so. The ideas below that part stand just fine without talking about popularity of norms

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#560

Post by boogies »

_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

(offtopic)

> (google translate)

DeepL is a much better translator, at least for the languages I know and according to all comparisons I’ve heard others make, btw (though I don’t know if Yandex Translate is better for Russian).

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