Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#491

Post by threatofrain » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

Sargos wrote: post #158

threatofrain wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple operates in Belarus and must respond to the pressures of the government. Americans would find it intrusive if Apple was strong enough to tell the US govt to back off.

> Americans would find it intrusive if Apple was strong enough to tell the US govt to back off. Are you sure? I remember people backing Apple when they were protecting users phones from FBI hacking.

I don't think Apple has the strength to tell the US government to back off, and I don't think Americans think so either. When Apple goes through the American legal system, that's the power of the American judiciary.

But Belarus?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#492

Post by aembleton » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

angry_octet wrote: post #475

Astounded that Apple is choosing to flush their privacy / human rights cred globally down the shitter over the slight possibility of losing market share in the tiny economy of Belarus...

Maybe they risk losing access to the Russian Market too

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#493

Post by FireBeyond » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

pleasebegood wrote: post #74

baybal2 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> clicking on content If you believe democracy to be unsightly and wrongful, then your believes are reactionary, and must be subject to rectification.

In which world is democracy doxing and planning violence against people?

Against people who, by all intents have literally sabotaged an election and installed themselves as authoritarian rulers?

Somehow in your definition democracy is something only allowed to happen organically, if forcefully torn from you by corruption and guns, "oh well".

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#494

Post by Causality1 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

rzwitserloot wrote: post #229

This keeps being posted and keeps disappearing, so I'm going to not link to it, but when you search around, a post on telegram by Pavel Durov explains that apple has in fact made 2 demands: Take down the private information __and__ in addition to that, do so silently: Do not replace it with a notice explaining which part of apple's guidelines were breached, because that would be 'irrelevant' info. Apparently, whilst…

Telegram is small enough for Apple to bully. Imagine if Apple tried to force Twitter to censor every "cancel crusade" or be removed from the App Store.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#495

Post by thatjamesdude » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #397

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

This is just beef with Telegram. That’s where the content is hosted. Apple as a distributor should have NO relevance to this. Apple is like a landlord who legally rented his shop to people who run it as a bar in which some people might meet to discuss protests. Should the police even call the landlord? Should the landlord act on this info?

Let's not twist the argument.

Those channels exist to spread private, identifiable data and this breaks the law.

A better version of your argument is Apple is the landlord where people are planning lynchings.

Again, I side with the Belarusians. But pretending this is different to China's doxxing of Uighurs is naive

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#496

Post by tus88 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

WTF this is bad.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#497

Post by FireBeyond » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

notRobot wrote: post #20

https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Fucking hell, Apple. ---- cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_...

"Do this or you're banned! But don't mention that it is us telling you to do it, or you're banned, because that might mean our PR team has to do some damage control!"

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#498

Post by thatjamesdude » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:43 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #457

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

> I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. The problem with that belief is enforcement. Because illegal numbers [0] are trivially shared, the only viable enforcement to prevent their sharing must have incredibly broad reach. This ultimately collapses down into "users cannot be allowed to own and operate their own general purpose computer."…

That feels like a false equivalency, because what I'm talking about is the right to be forgotten.

Which is only a fallacy because data is a commodity, not because it's technically impossible.

And yes you can't really be forgotten, copies can always exist but it shouldn't be hosted readily if you don't want it to be.

Unless I'm missing something?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#499

Post by thatjamesdude » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #459

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

> This HAS to apply equally No, it really doesn't. IMO it has to apply consistently . And it's easy to maintain cohesion / consistency here: If you have different rights, you get different rights. Police have additional rights, particularly when acting in the course of their jobs - specifically, they have the right of violence. Seems reasonable to give up the "right" of protection-from-griefing.

Is there a difference between equal and consistent application? I agree, but it seems we're saying the same thing?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#500

Post by dikaio » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

We need a better OS, similar to Ubuntu and Firefox models... an OS developed and maintained by the community that won’t do what every the government asks them to do because it’s in the governments or corporations best interest and not the people’s. I often hear the phrase “we are many” but many means nothing if you use tools that the people in control, control.