Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#401

Post by usr1106 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

paulcarroty wrote: post #94

usr1106 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so optimistic. Apple and Google are a duopoly to control mobile messaging (outside of China). Not for me, I use a Linux phone (Sailfish OS) with no Google. Not for real activists (criminals in the eyes es of oppressive governments like Chaina, Belarus, Russia, Iran, Turkey, ...) who will always find their way. But for 98% of any population.

> I use a Linux phone (Sailfish OS) Seems funny: proprietary OS plus the company cooperate with Russian government.

Well, I know, it's far from ideal in many senses.

But not in a sense that Google or Apple would directly decide what I cannot see.

Indirectly they already do, because a lot of public and commercial services, banking, public transport tickets, corona tracking are available only via those. But that's because the general public does not understand the threats of being dependent on the duopoly.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#402

Post by whimsicalism » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #42

ghostcluster wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.

Unfortunately, I doubt anyone would care for longer than a week. The privacy angle is irrelevant to most of their customers.

Is privacy not the main way Apple is trying to market themselves against Google?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#403

Post by whimsicalism » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

cheph wrote: post #43

ghostcluster wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.

I doubt Apple fanboys even know about Belarus, after all the media is pointing them everywhere but where actual tyranny, injustice and oppression occurs.

Weird usage of what’s happening in Belarus to seemingly try to minimize some domestic issue you don’t like?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#404

Post by extropy » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:01 PM UTC

Demiurge wrote: post #393

FeepingCreature wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a channel for white supremacists to coordinate terror attacks existing isn't good , per se, but it should still be possible for them by default and the government should have to demonstrate that it can responsibly handle the power to police it before we let it do so. So at the current state of the world, I wouldn't object to Apple doing this, but I'm still in favor of white supremacists being able to do this,…

A state is most of the time a tool for a majority to oppress a minority. Laws and police are just their tools, and so are dictators. Whoever is labeled a dictator is just a figurehead supported by majority of elites, who in turn are supported by economically strong coalition, represented by some majority of people who are united. Precisely, there is no difference between oppressing white supremacist minority and any…

Good point. Today's world is a grand experiment to find out what is the right balance between stability and privacy.

Stability comes with slowing down the progress and the top taking ever so more and getting more corrupt. So there always need to be some upwards pressure.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#405

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:03 PM UTC

extropy wrote: post #391

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if that's true - and I'm not going to get into that debate here - surely that doesn't mean that every company has to allow their products to become tools of mass violence.

The trick is that Apple is essentially a utility company and replacing it is a significant expense to the user. And it needs to be aware of it's power and act accordingly. Maybe a "device neutrality" law should be in order. To throw a dumb example your electricity company is not policing you for how you are using your killowats.

I'd like to see such a law, but I'm not sure this particular situation can be solved that way. The Belarusian government would presumably just pass a non-neutrality law, and then we're in the same place as before where Apple has to decide based on moral and practical considerations.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#406

Post by slang800 » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:05 PM UTC

oxymoran wrote: post #317

newbie578 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You state an excellent point and I would love to see the Apple fanboys argue your point.

I love how people say Apple fanboys like it’s an insult. Is there a legitimate, better option to apple? No because the smartphone market is dominated by google and apple. At least apple pretends to care about privacy. Yes, apple are obviously hypocrites. Still better than google. If there was another viable choice I would happily go with that.

You're implying that owning a smartphone is a necessity.

You could simply own neither an Apple nor a Google product and sidestep this whole decision.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#407

Post by extropy » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #354

VHRanger wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can sideload tiktok on your android if you're so inclined.

So what? If that was a practical means of installing it for most people, the governments would go after whoever hosts the APK.

That is a way more difficult target to hit. People can follow a 3 step instruction easily enough.

That's kinda the point that having a single controlling entity makes the ecosystem vulnerable to this kind of pressure.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#408

Post by abledon » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

rmtech wrote: post #364

latexr wrote: post #259

Tim Cook’s twitter bio[1] has the following: > “Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'” - MLK Considering this and the HKmap.live[2] situations, I’d say that in his case the answer to that question is “not much”. [1]: https://twitter.com/tim_cook [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKmap.live

That's unfair to Tim. He's a great help to the world's authoritarian regimes. He's doing plenty for them.

Its his fiduciary duty, the obligation to maximize profits for the shareholders.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#409

Post by john_minsk » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:09 PM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #186

john_minsk wrote: post #10

I'm from Belarus. Honestly, I'm surprised Apple gives a shit. Now I'm worried that Apple can cooperate with local police in case they make inquiry. Am I safe? Here is the link to one group that uses ML to de-anonymize people: https://youtu.be/FAJIrnphTFg

Looking at the video, on the one hand, I can see why that could be a sort of public service against the most egregious of brutal policing. On the other hand... that AI/ML looks like it has immense potential for wrongful identification . "AI hallucinating" the wrong person's face into the scene using totally convincing feature interpolation. In a high stakes scene where people feel the need to fight back, it's not har…

Noone was killed. They are safe. We have peaceful protests. Noone even using something like a bat and we don't have weapons in the arms of regular people

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#410

Post by adambyrtek » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 3:09 PM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #49

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #6

Through what right or means can Apple demand this, though? Telegram is a platform for user-generated content and it seems odd for Apple to single-out those 3 channels/groups specifically - what about the hundreds of thousands of other objectionable groups on Telegram? And why Telegram in particular? Why doesn't Apple give the same ultimatum to Facebook to pressure them to block access to militant ethnonationalist gro…

> And why Telegram in particular? It ended up as the main way Belarussian protesters organize themselves. TG is a huge target for their government and I would not be surprised if Apple is being pressured by them.

Belarus is the last European dictatorship considered a pariah state with no international influence and propped up economically by Russia, so I don't think it has much leverage over Apple. The situation would be very different if it was, for example, China.