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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#391

Post by extropy »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #369
herbstein wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some instances, like standing up to a violent, oppressive, and dictatorial regime violence is generally considered an acceptable form of political action.

Even if that's true - and I'm not going to get into that debate here - surely that doesn't mean that every company has to allow their products to become tools of mass violence.

The trick is that Apple is essentially a utility company and replacing it is a significant expense to the user. And it needs to be aware of it's power and act accordingly. Maybe a "device neutrality" law should be in order.

To throw a dumb example your electricity company is not policing you for how you are using your killowats.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#392

Post by aiisjustanif »

ghostcluster wrote: post #200
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would it blow up in their face when Apple's customers don't care? Apple has handed over the entire operation of iCloud in China to a regime owned company, including all user data and keys (they did warn users that they were going to do that though). At the same time they do not permit side-loading, thereby handing complete control over what users are allowed to install on their devices to authoritarian regimes. T…

This is the kind of hyprocisy that chips away at a brand's hard earned reputation. You may notice it's currently the top post on Hacker News. It was also the top post on /r/Apple/ earlier today, surely a haven of some of Apple's biggest fans and customers.

100% makes me what to ditch iPhones again.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#393

Post by Demiurge »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #248
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't see how this is different from Twitter taking down a tweet which doxxes someone. Would people object if Apple told Telegram they had to remove a channel that was being used by white supremacists to coordinate terrorist attacks? The answer to that question matters, because if users in this thread succeed in making iPhones less of a walled garden, terrorists will be able to use their iPhones to coordinate…

I think a channel for white supremacists to coordinate terror attacks existing isn't good , per se, but it should still be possible for them by default and the government should have to demonstrate that it can responsibly handle the power to police it before we let it do so. So at the current state of the world, I wouldn't object to Apple doing this, but I'm still in favor of white supremacists being able to do this,…

A state is most of the time a tool for a majority to oppress a minority. Laws and police are just their tools, and so are dictators. Whoever is labeled a dictator is just a figurehead supported by majority of elites, who in turn are supported by economically strong coalition, represented by some majority of people who are united.

Precisely, there is no difference between oppressing white supremacist minority and any other minority that wants to overthrow the status quo. It’s not going to be easier or harder depending on how the anti state elements are hiding their communication, because their conflict has to become public to have the effect you desire, which is some systemic change that you agree with ( making you part of this group by the way).

I’m not saying privacy is not important. I’m wondering whether unmitigated privacy is more important to people you and I most probably do not support.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#394

Post by wussboy »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #369
herbstein wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some instances, like standing up to a violent, oppressive, and dictatorial regime violence is generally considered an acceptable form of political action.

Even if that's true - and I'm not going to get into that debate here - surely that doesn't mean that every company has to allow their products to become tools of mass violence.

Violence may be seen as legitimate, but it shouldn’t be seen as effective. In a study of over 300 movements, non violent protests are twice as effective. https://www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/legacy/file...

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#395

Post by extropy »

BurningFrog wrote: post #261
_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

Griefing? Belarus is on the brink of civil war. Doxxing regime supporters can easily end up as a "murder todo list" if things heat up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Griefing

Maybe the guys should have thought about that before they started attacking peaceful protesters.

This is just one tool, and there will be killing with or without it.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#396

Post by sawjet »

foepys wrote: post #274
m3kw9 wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure that country can force Apple to comply with local laws. That’s how it works now.

So if an app shows an image of two men kissing, Apple should order the app makers to take it down worldwide because it's illegal in Uganda?

Yes, if it breaks the laws of Uganda

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#397

Post by toyg »

thatjamesdude wrote: post #380
tripzilch wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what do you do if you are Apple? Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Just hear yourself, "it's against the TOS" versus people on the streets trying to save their own country from a stolen election and a dictator?? OF COURSE the TOS of a tech company is completely irrelevant in this situation. TOS aren't even laws, they were just created by a profit driven corporation for legal pro…

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case. I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent. This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive. A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally. TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and at…

This is just beef with Telegram. That’s where the content is hosted.

Apple as a distributor should have NO relevance to this. Apple is like a landlord who legally rented his shop to people who run it as a bar in which some people might meet to discuss protests. Should the police even call the landlord? Should the landlord act on this info?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#398

Post by extropy »

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #383
mola wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yeah, white supremacists are violent racist. People protesting against election fraud, aren't. If your idea of stability is the opression of the unprivelidge, then you are part of the problem. This is exactly why corrupt government call protesters anarchists, so middle class people wouldn't mind opression as long as there's stability. While usually the actual destabilization and craziness comes from the people w…

Read my last paragraph. The point is that you can't jailbreak one without jailbreaking the other.

Should it be Apple's business to police terrorists?

Governments have found it convenient to offload policing to communication companies, via putting liability on them unless they do.

I don't think this is the way to go.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#399

Post by psychoslave »

toxik wrote: post #315
foepys wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if an app shows an image of two men kissing, Apple should order the app makers to take it down worldwide because it's illegal in Uganda?

FAANG etc have been kowtowing to oppressive regimes for well over a decade, did you not get the memo? Profit decides, not ethics.

Profitability is not absolute: what profits the best to mankind happiness maximization might widely differs from what might optimize profit for a few individuals

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#400

Post by whimsicalism »

akudha wrote: post #143
ghostcluster wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got to just hope that Apple realizes how bad this would blow up in their face if they worked with police in Belarus to identify democratic protestors, especially given their emphasis on "privacy" in their marketing.

Why would this blow up in their face? Have you seen the lines outside Apple stores whenever they launch a new product? Apple customers do not care. There is a small minority of people who care (like people on this site) but I bet even they will continue to buy Apple products. We are talking about a mind bogglingly rich company with arrogance to match. Even if this gets them bad PR, it will be forgotten in a few minut…

Not me. I feel like Apple has to actually compete with often times higher quality luxury products in 2020.

No reason for me to buy any new Apple products and after this news, I won’t.

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