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Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

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Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#371

Whenever I was in a discussion on HN with Apple fanboys, who were saying how happy they are with no sideloading of apps on iOS, I was telling them to imagine if Apple will remove the app they need for some reason, like request from an authoritarian regime. In the future I'll be pointing not only to unavailability of chat apps in China, but also to this. Apple monopoly on iOS platform must be broken, and Apple should…

That won't work, because governments that want to restrict what apps their citizens use will make a law that phones in that country must not allow sideloading.

The phone makers will either have to comply or leave that country. Either way, the people in that country do not get the app.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You state an excellent point and I would love to see the Apple fanboys argue your point.

I love how people say Apple fanboys like it’s an insult. Is there a legitimate, better option to apple? No because the smartphone market is dominated by google and apple. At least apple pretends to care about privacy. Yes, apple are obviously hypocrites. Still better than google. If there was another viable choice I would happily go with that.

Apple fanboy is not the same as an Apple user. As an example a fanboy is emotional y invested, Apple is part of his identity. When reports of broken keyboards surfaced the fanboys attacked the affected users and defended Apple.

Other fanboy examples, Apple does bad thing X, fanboys defends Apple, class action lawsuit forces Apple to stop doing bad thing X , Apple announces that they kindly stopped doing X and fanboys praise Apple for their goodness.

Other example, Apple removes you the choice for alternative payment methods, removes the choice for you to get informed of alternatives and from this articles seems they refuse to inform people where censorship was applied and for some reason fanboys will defend the fact that all users are deprived of mere choices.,

Some other examples is when the fanboys complain about ads, lootboxes and other shitty in app payments but ignroe the fact that Apple gets a cut of the money instead of just banning ads,tracking,lootboxes etc.

Even people here on HN that should be more competent try to push a narrative that a side loaded app is insecure when in fact the same sandbox will protect the user and web notifications seem to be also some extremely hard concept to implement right by Apple engineers, you would think they have competent developers and designers that could find a good UX.

Conclusion, Most Apple users are not fanboys, I seen them on the Apple reddit criticising when Apple does some shit, so when somone uses the word fanboy he means a person that has Apple as part of his identity, criticizing Apple is the same as an attack on him or his mother.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#373
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you planning to dox Apple employees? That seems like the logical conclusion if you think they have blood on their hands. It seems like a little much to call Apple an ‘enabler’ for being against doxing. Just because protesters use a tactic doesn’t mean everyone needs to support it, especially if it is a tacit call to violence.

Is the argument you're making "if you see someone doing something bad, you should not only call it out as such, but also be willing to do something bad to stop it"? That doesn't make sense to me unless there's really no other option to prevent a much greater evil. I think we're still at the point in this story where normal consumer and media pressure can be effective.

I don’t know why you would think it’s my argument.

It seems a lot closer to the argument DoingIsLearning is making about why “Apple employees” have blood on their hands.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#374
post #267
post #259

Tim Cook’s twitter bio[1] has the following: > “Life's most persistent and urgent question is, 'What are you doing for others?'” - MLK Considering this and the HKmap.live[2] situations, I’d say that in his case the answer to that question is “not much”. [1]: https://twitter.com/tim_cook [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKmap.live

Sure that country can force Apple to comply with local laws. That’s how it works now.

This illustrates why having large portions of the population using hyper-centralized platforms is a problem[0]. A system based around a single point of failure is inherently brittle. While I don't blame Apple for obeying local laws, or even for having a strict moderation policy for chat apps in its store, I do blame Apple for banning sideloading from a platform that's a general-purpose computing and communication tool for a large fraction of the human population.

[0] There is an assumption built in to this that governments censoring their political opponents is bad; I choose not to question it here.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I don't see how this is different from Twitter taking down a tweet which doxxes someone. Would people object if Apple told Telegram they had to remove a channel that was being used by white supremacists to coordinate terrorist attacks? The answer to that question matters, because if users in this thread succeed in making iPhones less of a walled garden, terrorists will be able to use their iPhones to coordinate…

I think a channel for white supremacists to coordinate terror attacks existing isn't good , per se, but it should still be possible for them by default and the government should have to demonstrate that it can responsibly handle the power to police it before we let it do so. So at the current state of the world, I wouldn't object to Apple doing this, but I'm still in favor of white supremacists being able to do this,…

This isn't a government, this is Apple. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for Apple to install some speed bumps against activity such as doxxing or terror which it strongly frowns upon.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#376
post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

> So what do you do if you are Apple? Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Just hear yourself, "it's against the TOS" versus people on the streets trying to save their own country from a stolen election and a dictator?? OF COURSE the TOS of a tech company is completely irrelevant in this situation. TOS aren't even laws, they were just created by a profit driven corporation for legal pro…

Just hear yourself, "it's against the TOS" versus people on the streets trying to save their own country from a stolen election and a dictator??

This is literally the "just comply with the police and you'll be fine" argument.

Yes, we KNOW everyone clicked through the ToS, but it _completely_ misses the point of the discussion.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#377
post #371

Whenever I was in a discussion on HN with Apple fanboys, who were saying how happy they are with no sideloading of apps on iOS, I was telling them to imagine if Apple will remove the app they need for some reason, like request from an authoritarian regime. In the future I'll be pointing not only to unavailability of chat apps in China, but also to this. Apple monopoly on iOS platform must be broken, and Apple should…

That won't work, because governments that want to restrict what apps their citizens use will make a law that phones in that country must not allow sideloading. The phone makers will either have to comply or leave that country. Either way, the people in that country do not get the app.

False, that currently works with Android. Even in China you can still sideload any banned app and use it with VPN.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#378
post #250

Hold on... it’s not quite as clear-cut as the Apple-haters that joyously jumped in put it. These channels are not about a platform for freedom of speech and rallying for peaceful demonstrations. Nope. It’s about exposing PII of public officials; names and home addresses? Take pause to appreciate the possible consequences of this. What could possibly go wrong? Now I agree that Belarus officials are complicit or active…

Quoting https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/17/the-only-way-t... :

“The only way to stop violence is to pull off the masks, in both the literal and metaphorical sense. An officer who is no longer anonymous will think twice before he grabs, beats or kidnaps someone,"

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#379
Why doesn’t telegram just ignore the request?

Saying “we don’t feel like we have much choice” is a cop out.

For those that say Apple is morally compromised for collaborating with the oppressors, why is the same not true for Telegram complying with Apple (the oppressor in this case)?

Yes, Apple could remove Telegram from the store in Belarus, but that would definitely be a disproportionate response, and would have much more of an impact on Apple.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#380
post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

> So what do you do if you are Apple? Nothing because Apple has ZERO, no place meddling in this business. Just hear yourself, "it's against the TOS" versus people on the streets trying to save their own country from a stolen election and a dictator?? OF COURSE the TOS of a tech company is completely irrelevant in this situation. TOS aren't even laws, they were just created by a profit driven corporation for legal pro…

Whilst I agree with the specifics here, the problem is the general case.

I don't agree that you should be allowed to post people's private, identifying data to a public forum without consent.

This HAS to apply equally, because the idea that there is a universal set of right and wrong is incredibly naive.

A better argument here is how the laws aren't applied equally.

TrueCaller was used by the Chinese to harass and attack human rights activists, and it is essentially an index of everyone's contact list.

Yet, somehow, this doesn't bother Apple. 100% financially motivated.

But my point stands. These telegram channels that exist to distribute public data of people merely accused of being involved with the regime should be shutdown. The term here is witch hunt and I'll take a lot of convincing that innocent people haven't already been falsely accused

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