Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#241

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:41 AM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #183

echelon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop worshipping this company. It's not a force for good. They've kicked us out of open computing by locking down the only computer a lot of folks own (iPhone). And now look what kind of shit they can pull because they own the entire stack! This shouldn't be possible! We really have to push against this and hope the DOJ forces all phone providers to allow "side-loading" (what a bizarre term!) The iPhone is a c…

Yes, don't worship any company or organisation, not Apple, not SpaceX, not Bell Labs, not the United States of America, none at all. Even if they do the right things now, future leadership may decide to do the opposite and lie about it, values may change, goals shift. Try to treat them as groups of strangers that change every few years, not as individuals with a personality that you somehow feel like you really reall…

[deleted]

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#242

Post by dmitryminkovsky » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:43 AM UTC

notRobot wrote: post #20

https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Fucking hell, Apple. ---- cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_...

You skipped a few paragraphs. Here’s the beginning:

> Apple released a statement saying they didn't want us to take down the 3 channels run by the Belarusian protestors, but just specific posts "disclosing personal information."

> This sly wording ignores the fact that channels like @karatelibelarusi and @belarusassholes consist entirely of personal information of violent oppressors and those who helped rig the elections – because that is why those channels exist.

So wait, the issue foremost is the doxing. Doxing is against the clearly stated rules of their platform, so they don’t want you doxing people in apps on their platform. Which is okay with me, because the mob (The “majority”, note Durov even cites a very high consensus percentage for us to feel good about it) deciding who is ok to dox and who is not ok to dox is always dangerous for humanity.

Now, Belarus is without doubt (in my view) run by “violent oppressors”, and there is no rule of law by which protestors can seek redress, but the notion that it’s okay to dox people because you took a poll somewhere that included some percentage of Belarusians is downright naive and scary, and doesn’t smell much better at all than the government itself, however true it may be.

That Apple steps in and micromanages at this level is the disturbing element in my opinion, because certainly they’re only doing it because they were notified by Belarusian authorities, but to me the greater issue is the mob justice, against which there is also no appeal or redress, which to me is very scary, even if in this instance it is correct.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#243

Post by gigatexal » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:45 AM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #183

echelon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop worshipping this company. It's not a force for good. They've kicked us out of open computing by locking down the only computer a lot of folks own (iPhone). And now look what kind of shit they can pull because they own the entire stack! This shouldn't be possible! We really have to push against this and hope the DOJ forces all phone providers to allow "side-loading" (what a bizarre term!) The iPhone is a c…

Yes, don't worship any company or organisation, not Apple, not SpaceX, not Bell Labs, not the United States of America, none at all. Even if they do the right things now, future leadership may decide to do the opposite and lie about it, values may change, goals shift. Try to treat them as groups of strangers that change every few years, not as individuals with a personality that you somehow feel like you really reall…

I couldn’t have said it better myself dividedbyzero. +1 to you

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#244

Post by aero-glide » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:46 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #220

aero-glide wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need diversity in App stores. I installed F-droid for android, has almost all the apps I need. Provide the users with choices! You own the hardware, not the company!

Diversity in app stores are good, but keep in mind F-droid chose to censor Gab.

F droid has an easy way to add custom repos though

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#245

Post by DoingIsLearning » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:46 AM UTC

If protestors were to prove that the loss of access to the information from these channels lead to their imprisonment and subsequent torture, could they take Apple to the ICC in the Hague, for crimes against Humanity?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#246

Post by benhurmarcel » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:48 AM UTC

afwe wrote: post #83

notRobot wrote: post #20

https://t.me/durov/136 > Previously, when removing posts at Apple’s request, Telegram replaced those posts with a notice that cited the exact rule limiting such content for iOS users. However, Apple reached out to us a while ago and said our app is not allowed to show users such notices because they were “irrelevant”. Fucking hell, Apple. ---- cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four#Ministry_...

But those notices really are irrelevant, right? I mean, there is nothing I can do to bypass them. It's bad UX, like showing a disabled button that I can't enable by any means. Having said this, you can still use Telegram Web on Safari to bypass these restrictions.

I don't think they're irrelevant at all, but anyway why would it be forbidden for a developer to include some irrelevant information in their app if they want to?

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#247

Post by eptcyka » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #183

echelon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop worshipping this company. It's not a force for good. They've kicked us out of open computing by locking down the only computer a lot of folks own (iPhone). And now look what kind of shit they can pull because they own the entire stack! This shouldn't be possible! We really have to push against this and hope the DOJ forces all phone providers to allow "side-loading" (what a bizarre term!) The iPhone is a c…

Yes, don't worship any company or organisation, not Apple, not SpaceX, not Bell Labs, not the United States of America, none at all. Even if they do the right things now, future leadership may decide to do the opposite and lie about it, values may change, goals shift. Try to treat them as groups of strangers that change every few years, not as individuals with a personality that you somehow feel like you really reall…

> This is an absolutely huge thing. If they break that, it'll wipe out their mobile products.

How? And why? Most people won't care. I think disallowing Telegram to operate freely will wipe out Apple's iOS products in countries where real freedom of speech matters.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#248

Post by FeepingCreature » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #235

_RPL5_ wrote: post #102

Here is a source in Russian [0] saying that Apple is asking Telegram to remove messages that de-anonymize Belorussian police members, rather than blocking channels outright. I don't know whether their source is reliable, but here is the relevant snippet (google translate): > Apple says it didn’t require any channels to be removed. But they demanded to immediately remove any information that discloses someone's data o…

Yeah, I don't see how this is different from Twitter taking down a tweet which doxxes someone. Would people object if Apple told Telegram they had to remove a channel that was being used by white supremacists to coordinate terrorist attacks? The answer to that question matters, because if users in this thread succeed in making iPhones less of a walled garden, terrorists will be able to use their iPhones to coordinate…

I think a channel for white supremacists to coordinate terror attacks existing isn't good, per se, but it should still be possible for them by default and the government should have to demonstrate that it can responsibly handle the power to police it before we let it do so. So at the current state of the world, I wouldn't object to Apple doing this, but I'm still in favor of white supremacists being able to do this, because I don't know of any mechanism by which you could stop precisely white supremacist terrorists from coordinating but not also citizens coordinating against state power.

I don't want white supremacists being able to carry out terror attacks, but I want people to be able to coordinate demonstrations and civil resistance, and I'm not aware of a way to do this without also enabling white supremacists, and I think that's a valid tradeoff.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#249

Post by y04nn » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

There is something terribly wrong here. Imagine Microsoft asking Facebook to block access to some Facebook groups for Windows/IE users. Yes Telegram is on the AppStore distributed by Apple, but it's a free app, just a enhanced web app. Apple wants to have control on what you know, what you see, what you think. I'm not going to buy an Apple product any time soon, despite the hardware and software being the best you can get.

Re: Apple tells Telegram to take down protestor channels in Belarus

#250

Post by eecc » Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

Hold on... it’s not quite as clear-cut as the Apple-haters that joyously jumped in put it.

These channels are not about a platform for freedom of speech and rallying for peaceful demonstrations.

Nope. It’s about exposing PII of public officials; names and home addresses? Take pause to appreciate the possible consequences of this. What could possibly go wrong?

Now I agree that Belarus officials are complicit or actively engaging in violations of personal freedom, violence and persecution.

But calling out individuals with the not-so-subtle encouragement for personal confrontation and violent retribution is illegal and frowned upon in all democratic societies.