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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#261

Post by donmcronald »

nvrspyx wrote: post #193
d1zzy wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30% is too high What determines what is too high here? If it's about the cost of it (it costs Google/Apple much less money to build and maintain an ecosystem so they can "afford" to do it) wouldn't that imply that there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less? But maybe because that doesn't happen is proof that it may not be "too high".

> imply there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less? Hmmm. Let's see what one would need to do at a bare minimum: - start manufacturing phones - build own OS (or fork Android) - develop own SDK - develop own online store infrastructure - manufacture other devices (e.g. Apple) and/or develop other services (e.g. Google) to complete "ecosystem" The barrier to entry i…

And it barely makes a difference. You’d still need to deal with Apple and Google. There’s no way to get enough competition into the mobile OS market to make it healthy. They need to be regulated with a big stick.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#263

Post by whakim »

wycy wrote: post #56
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

> ex: NYT NYT is a great example of this. It took me multiple attempts over a span of 2 days to cancel my NYT subscription. There have been a few times since then when I've been tempted to re-subscribe (their election results tools are great), but remembering how hard it was to unsubscribe, I don't think I'll go back.

I find it absurd that subscription services don't offer a "Cancel Subscription" button somewhere. That being said, it's also absurd that I have to pay Apple a 30% premium for this "feature."

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#264

Post by esarbe »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #177
whimsicalism wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am proud that I pretty much cured everyone in my circle from buying any Apple products. And buying what instead?

Potentially unpopular opinion here on HN, but Android.

Not unpopular, but it just won't work; Google has already indicated that it also is going to want a 30% cut. And side-loading is not really an option for the average consumer.

The problem of rent-seeking by monopolists will just go away by itself.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#265

Post by drtz »

forty wrote: post #238
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

I feel it's the contrary. We are generally happy to refund customers that are not happy with our service, but the app store is the only payment system where we cannot refund them (I don't really know what the UX looks like on the customer side, but I think they have to contact Apple to ask for the refund and it's not always as easy as it should to get the refund) Note that things might have changed since I worked on…

I can confirm it's not straightforward to get a refund from Apple for an App Store purchase, it was for me at least.

In the most recent case I tried to request a refund immediately after buying an app, only to get a vague and unhelpful error message. After a little Googling I learned that you have to wait a period of a few hours before requesting a refund. Of course I forgot to go back and request the refund later so I ended up paying for an app that didn't do what I expected it to.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#266

Post by [deleted] »

skc wrote: post #26
newbie578 wrote: post #9

Another thread where people will fly to defend Apple and explain how it's circumstances are similar to PS and Xbox and no one is coming after Sony, yet everyone conveniently decides not to compare Apple to early 2000s Microsoft which is basically a mirror situation. I guess people "expect" stuff like this from Apple which is the reason we are not allowed to criticize them, yet if Microsoft came out and said Steam bre…

The big difference is Apple products are quite literally beloved. It must feel quite strange to be asked to adjudicate over such complaints when you yourself actually love the products of the company you're supposed to make a ruling on.

[deleted]

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#267

Post by tedunangst »

manfredo wrote: post #202
dpiers wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about video game consoles? Early in a generation, they are sold at razor-thin (or negative) margins, with the expectation that the manufacturer will recoup losses from licensing fees over the life of the console and that costs will come down in later revisions. If manufacturers lose their substantial licensing fees, they would be forced to charge more upfront for the consoles which is objectively worse for consu…

Consoles are much, much narrower in use than smartphones. Most consoles have a few thousand titles, if that. By comparison the App Store had millions of applications. And as you point out, manufacturers are building these consoles at a loss. Apple builds it's phones at a profit. Getting a game approved for sale on a console is much more involved than releasing an App on the App Store, and involves significant manual…

Can't wait for Apple to cut the App Store back to a thousand apps so they qualify as a console.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#268

Post by ocdtrekkie »

gshulegaard wrote: post #201
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And honestly, I have no problem with Apple even insisting there be an Apple IAP model (like they require "Sign in with Apple" offered alongside alternatives). Because choosing to pay the Apple tax is perfectly fine, especially if you feel it provides you benefits. The issue is Apple's requirement that you can only use IAP, cannot offer alternative, cheaper, prices, cannot direct people to your website to sign up for…

I somewhat disagree. I think the gold standard would have been for Fortnite to simply increase the prices of IAP purchases on iOS devices to pass the 30% on to consumers who choose to use iOS IAP. I can't seem to find a rule that says pricing must be the same for IAP as elsewhere in current guidelines: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sub... That seems like the best of both worlds in the sense…

I think there's something inherently unethical about Apple making it against the rules to let people know they're paying more to buy it on Apple though.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#269

Post by scrose »

iav wrote: post #94
JonLim wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am curious: what made it so difficult to cancel / unsubscribe? If you subscribed with a credit card, did the option of chargebacks ever come up? (Asking because these sorts of situations seem perfectly in line for disputing with your credit card provider.)

Chargebacks are way harder in real life than people think. It took me multiple calls, emailing evidence/screenshots, and months to get a $300 charge back processed. That was for a completely fraudulent charge at a bar. The way it was explained to me, banks will only process a chargeback when you have provided evidence of trying to contact the merchant and they refused to provide a refund and couldn’t show a valid con…

Maybe it depends on your bank? I’ve had to do a couple chargebacks on Chase CC’s in the $200-300 range and I just had to click a button in their web portal.

It was more difficult for me to get reimbursed when I tried depositing $300 in a Chase ATM and then it crashed halfway through. But that just involved a 2 minute phone call to resolve

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#270

Post by dmitryminkovsky »

Guessing this is a hugely unpopular opinion here:

A mafia engages in racketeering/extortion. They take a game that’s fair, and make it unfair. Instead of creating value, they steal it. Without the mafia, people would retain more value for themselves.

Apple, on the other hand, created and maintains an enormous platform. Without Apple, the App Store would not exist. The rules are posted to a webpage and are applied more or less equally to everyone. All the transactions that occur in this App Store are value they enable to exist. Without Apple, instead of creating an app you would have to create an app and the platform and distribution mechanism etc. The cut they take, in light of this, seems more than reasonable to me.

The hate Apple gets here and other places seems really misplaced to me. They’re not a common carrier. They’re not a monopoly. They’re not even close to being a monopoly. They’re a huge company, but there is plenty of competition out there. I don’t understand why people act like they can’t make the rules of their platform. Much less why people would say they are a mafia.

Concretely about this post: it seems really naive!

> "Out of the blue, one day they said you have to add in-app purchase to stay in the App Store. They stumbled upon something in the app that mentioned there were paid plans, they went to the website and saw there was a subscription you could purchase, and then turned around and demanded we add IAP.

This sounds like a child making up a story for the principal. Come on... really? Proton mail is a huge thing. Apple’s rules are public and easy to understand. How is it that I can understand the App Store rules but Proton Mail cannot? Apple want their cut! They don’t want a mechanism to side step or encourage users to side step that cut. It’s so simple.

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