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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#171

Post by enragedcacti »

Hermel wrote: post #163
pwinnski wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a pretty large misreading of the situation. Yes, the most disagreeable thing about Apple's IAP policies is where they forbid links to alternative purchase pages. But it is also the smallest of the current complaints. It's not "additional" means of purchases many companies are pushing for. They want to be able to avoid offering Apple's IAP whatsoever. I mean, ProtonMail did not have IAP in their app at…

And your reading of the situation lacks one crucial piece of information: Apple does not allow app authors to forward the “Apple tax” to the user. For example, if a newspaper subscription costs 300$ on the website, the publisher must not charge more than that in the app store event though he only gets 210$ after the “Apple tax”.

This isn't actually the case. That policy was part of a set of changes that were meant to go into effect in July but that Apple rolled back. You're allowed to charge a different price but you can't tell the user that they can get it cheaper elsewhere or that you're paying 30% to Apple.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#172

Post by d1zzy »

Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

When you will build your own piece of land from scratch then you also get to decide what laws govern it.

The iPhone, iOS and the Apple Store exist because someone had the idea, will and spent tons of money building it. They aren't natural resources that Apple acquired and imposed on people so now everyone else has no choice but to pay the Apple tax.

So I don't see how that analogy applies here.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#173

Post by rfw300 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

> Just imagine if Microsoft had taken a 30% cut from every developer who ever compiled software for windows

Microsoft has the whole code-signing racket going on for Windows, but that's at least a flat fee in fairness.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#174

Post by whimsicalism »

Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

> Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners.

And while we're at it, implement a Georgist tax scheme on landlords.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#175

Post by celsoazevedo »

whaaaaaaaaa wrote: post #40
celsoazevedo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike macOS, Windows, Linux, and Android, there's no other way of installing apps on iOS. You have to use the App Store.

Can't ProtonMail do a web based mobile client?

You can't do a proper web app on iOS because Safari/Webkit doesn't support what you need to do it well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14864131

This wouldn't be a problem if you could install Firefox, Chrome, etc, but on iOS browsers can't use their engine... they're essentially Safari with a different skin on top.

I think complaints from devs/services make less sense on Android. Almost everyone uses Google's Play Store, but you can install an app manually like you do on your phone or even use a 3rd party store. If you don't like Chrome, you can install Firefox. If Google bans VPNs in China (like Apple did), users can sideload the app.

On iOS, for devs, it's either the App Store and Apple rules or you're out of the platform. For users, it's what Apple allows... and many of their rules aren't there to protect users.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#176

Post by d1zzy »

croh wrote: post #33

Google/Apple should drop the percentage. 30% is too high. Store is a kind of ecosystem which based on the mutual benefits of both Apple and Devs. Devs helped to accelerate their products. Having billions in reserve, they should not hurt this relationship.

> 30% is too high

What determines what is too high here? If it's about the cost of it (it costs Google/Apple much less money to build and maintain an ecosystem so they can "afford" to do it) wouldn't that imply that there is a huge market opportunity for someone else to build their own ecosystem and charge less? But maybe because that doesn't happen is proof that it may not be "too high".

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#177

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

whimsicalism wrote: post #109
varispeed wrote: post #102

I hope that the model Apple is using will be made illegal, most likely in the EU first. But I am concerned that if you have a one trillion dollars, they you pretty much can do anything you want, as with such money you can buy any decision. Apple should be forced to allow 3rd party app stores in their ecosystem. There are many other things Apple is doing wrong and all we can do now is to raise awareness about their sh…

> I am proud that I pretty much cured everyone in my circle from buying any Apple products. And buying what instead?

Potentially unpopular opinion here on HN, but Android.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#178

Post by bsg75 »

lorthemar wrote: post #150
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

While I don't have any data on it. I think that retention tactics that drag out the process might be more harmful in the future. Especially in terms of brand image. I might be cancelling the service for a short while or I might be switching companies/priorities. If the cancellation process is tedious, I won't feel like returning to that service. In terms of the argument here, it feels like Proton Mail is trying to mi…

> I think that retention tactics that drag out the process might be more harmful in the future.

I agree, but the case I directly observed was when the only focus was on the current period. What happened in the current month or quarter was the only concern. Long term effects were "too complex to worry about". This form of business myopia is all too common.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#179

Post by bsg75 »

lisper wrote: post #128
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

30% is not an amount I would consider a "small" premium.

> I'm not debating if a 30% cut is reasonable

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#180

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

"stop them from banning apps from their stores that aren't breaking any laws"

It's unlikely to happen in the US because one primary weapon of Cancel Culture is going for the financial jugular, by getting people they dislike banned from payment processing platforms, who all hide behind "we are a private entity" BS.

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