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ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

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Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#201

Post by gshulegaard »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #92
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

And honestly, I have no problem with Apple even insisting there be an Apple IAP model (like they require "Sign in with Apple" offered alongside alternatives). Because choosing to pay the Apple tax is perfectly fine, especially if you feel it provides you benefits. The issue is Apple's requirement that you can only use IAP, cannot offer alternative, cheaper, prices, cannot direct people to your website to sign up for…

I somewhat disagree. I think the gold standard would have been for Fortnite to simply increase the prices of IAP purchases on iOS devices to pass the 30% on to consumers who choose to use iOS IAP.

I can't seem to find a rule that says pricing must be the same for IAP as elsewhere in current guidelines:

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#sub...

That seems like the best of both worlds in the sense that as a user you can choose to purchase in iOS for convenience or go to Fortnite elsewhere and purchase there for cheaper. This move just seems like Epic wanted to pick a fight, they weren't actually interested in offsetting the Apple cut.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#202

Post by manfredo »

dpiers wrote: post #182
Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

What about video game consoles? Early in a generation, they are sold at razor-thin (or negative) margins, with the expectation that the manufacturer will recoup losses from licensing fees over the life of the console and that costs will come down in later revisions. If manufacturers lose their substantial licensing fees, they would be forced to charge more upfront for the consoles which is objectively worse for consu…

Consoles are much, much narrower in use than smartphones. Most consoles have a few thousand titles, if that. By comparison the App Store had millions of applications. And as you point out, manufacturers are building these consoles at a loss. Apple builds it's phones at a profit. Getting a game approved for sale on a console is much more involved than releasing an App on the App Store, and involves significant manual review not just of the quality of the game but also the content.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#203

Post by manfredo »

whimsicalism wrote: post #194
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Potentially unpopular opinion here on HN, but Android.

And that avoids the rent-seeking problem... how?

You can side load apps. You don't need to go through Google Play.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#204

Post by ashtonkem »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #180
Barrin92 wrote: post #167

Apple is nothing else but the digital equivalent of a landlord extracting economic rents from everyone in the ecosystem. It's time to put an end to it, and while we're at it the same goes for all the other platform owners. We (in this case the EU) should give it the same treatment we gave credit card companies. Cap their rates at 1% or whatever so they can cover the operational costs of their stores, stop them from b…

"stop them from banning apps from their stores that aren't breaking any laws" It's unlikely to happen in the US because one primary weapon of Cancel Culture is going for the financial jugular, by getting people they dislike banned from payment processing platforms, who all hide behind "we are a private entity" BS.

I'm not comfortable having the US government tell Apple what entities they are obligated to do business with.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#205

Post by offtop5 »

I actually like Apple's walled garden. If you want a phone which allows you to run random binaries found on the internet, buy an Android phone.

I recently started submitted apps to the iOS store and I found it very much fair. I don't have to worry about scailing servers to host my .ipas, users are ensured I'm not going to try and hack their phones.

I do think Apple should allow apps to clearly state they charge more due to Apple policies. But it's like if you come into Apple's house , you need to respect Apple's rules.

I guarantee you within days of allowing 3rd party App stores users would be getting their IDs stolen and blaming Apple

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#206

Post by Spivak »

toyg wrote: post #200
pwinnski wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has not been true since 2011, nine years ago! https://venturebeat.com/2011/06/09/apple-backtracks-on-in-ap...

As your sibling comment demonstrates, Apple will try and try again to reinstate that policy. One way or the other, they’ll squeeze developers until the last ounce of profit goes to Apple. They are the supermarket chain of software now, and that’s what supermarket chains do.

I mean if you're going to hang Apple for crimes they haven't committed yet then you could at least be more creative about them.

Apple is going to force all apps that offer messaging as a feature to integrate with iMessage!

Apple is going to force companies with an iOS app to turn over 30% of their total gross revenue! And it's additive!

If you don't buy an iCloud subscription Apple is going to randomly delete some of your alarms!

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#207

Post by walterbell »

macjohnmcc wrote: post #90
walterbell wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Apple subscriptions are a reliable way to signup for HBO or Showtime to binge-watch a specific show. Signup and immediately cancel the subscription, that gives you 30 days to watch. No further payment management actions needed.

It is funny that if you sign up for a 7 day free trial of Apple TV+ that if you cancel immediately before the end of the 7 days your trial is up immediately as well.

Also applies to 1-year Apple TV trial.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#208

Post by zamadatix »

pwinnski wrote: post #162
zamadatix wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what Apple insisted, if you have IAP you can't have a button below that says "or buy direct 30% cheaper". It's either IAP or no mention of payments.

ProtonMail had no IAP in their app at all, but offered paid subscriptions on their website. Apple insisted that they offer IAP in the app, and ProtonMail is upset. Here: > "Out of the blue, one day they said you have to add in-app purchase to stay in the App Store. They stumbled upon something in the app that mentioned there were paid plans, they went to the website and saw there was a subscription you could purchase…

Yes, ProtonMail's ideal is no IAP. That doesn't mean the "Mafia Extortion" isn't related to the above. It's perfectly possible for ProtonMail to be angry about more than 1 policy at a time and at varying levels accordingly.

It's also possible for 2 people to read the same thing and come to different conclusions so please don't imply others must have misread something to have disagreed with you. Not only does it not move the conversation forward any it's needlessly insulting.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#209

Post by rurp »

iav wrote: post #94
JonLim wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am curious: what made it so difficult to cancel / unsubscribe? If you subscribed with a credit card, did the option of chargebacks ever come up? (Asking because these sorts of situations seem perfectly in line for disputing with your credit card provider.)

Chargebacks are way harder in real life than people think. It took me multiple calls, emailing evidence/screenshots, and months to get a $300 charge back processed. That was for a completely fraudulent charge at a bar. The way it was explained to me, banks will only process a chargeback when you have provided evidence of trying to contact the merchant and they refused to provide a refund and couldn’t show a valid con…

I've only made a few chargebacks but each time it was really easy. I've never had to provide any sort of documentation and have gotten the money back quickly each time.

The most recent time was with a company that wouldn't honor their refund policy. They were awfully rude over email so I made sure to take screenshots of the policy on their website in case they disputed the chargeback and/or changed the wording on their site. Turns out, there wasn't even an option to upload that information when I filed with my credit card, and I won the case without doing anything further.

Re: ProtonMail CEO calls Apple's forced in-app purchases 'Mafia extortion'

#210

Post by lasftew »

wycy wrote: post #56
bsg75 wrote: post #43

I'm actually happier to pay a small premium for IAP based subscriptions because of the cancellation options. Having been subjected to asinine "retention" policies that make ending a subscription service an onerous and time consuming process (ex: NYT), and having seen first hand how a company purposefully makes subscription cancellations difficult, being able to open a single interface and click `Cancel` is a massive…

> ex: NYT NYT is a great example of this. It took me multiple attempts over a span of 2 days to cancel my NYT subscription. There have been a few times since then when I've been tempted to re-subscribe (their election results tools are great), but remembering how hard it was to unsubscribe, I don't think I'll go back.

It might help to set your billing address to some random place in California. It worked for me a few days ago when I canceled my WSJ subscription, a "Cancel subscription" button magically appeared in the settings that wasn't there before.
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