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Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

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Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#51

Post by djur »

clusterfish wrote: post #23
tclancy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we pretend that was so, at least you have a bunch. A bunch that can argue for decent healthcare, for reasonable family leave and vacation, for any benefit you care to find important. Otherwise you’re just some schmo talking to your direct manager who has been put in that role as a firewall between you and getting a bigger slice of the pie.

Developed countries have reasonable healthcare, parental leave and vacation minimums provided by the magic of a functional government. If your country doesn't maybe focus on fixing that for everyone. Don't need unions for that.

Virtually every European country has a higher unionization rate than the US, especially in the private sector. (Government employees are a huge portion of US union membership.) Unions provide a political countervailing force against business interests that helps ensure the existence of those reasonable, "magical" government policies. In some countries, unions are even involved in administrating those policies (such as in multi-payer health care systems with union-managed health plans).

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#52

Post by newbie789 »

deanCommie wrote: post #25
tclancy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t want what, a leg to stand on? A seat at the table to bargain with your betters? How is some random data point about your wife’s experience evidence against collective bargaining? What do you see as the downside? “Gee, sure we have a say in our benefits and my salary is way higher, but there’s this one coworker who doesn’t pull their weight.” As opposed to life in a non-union shop, where it’s a workers paradise…

This is going to be controversial and slightly classist, but... There is work that is utility work and there is work that isn't. I don't mean skilled or unskilled. A common dunk on the distinction between the two is something like "I'd love to see the CEO of try a day on the line of and see if they still want to call it unskilled labour." No, where I differentiate is jobs where ANYONE can learn the skills, and others…

I've seen this discussion play out multiple times on this site and it's always informative!

Full disclosure: I've said on here before that I don't particularly have any issue with the ability to unionize, and I'm not in a position to tell anyone what's right or wrong one way or another. If people unionize and it has a positive outcome, great! If not, that sucks! It, like many professional moves, boils down to choice and I'm not here to give career advice, especially not to an industry as a whole.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on what parts of your statement are explicitly classist in your estimation? I genuinely don't understand your point.

Which jobs would you suggest every person could eventually excel at equally because of the tools that have been invented? What about those jobs is so universally accomplishable that all humans are made truly equal less experience?

I agree that businesses should have the ability to promote based on seniority or skill! Limiting that wouldn't be efficient!

Do all unions preclude that flexibility by the very concept of their existence? I could imagine that in some cases it could be possible to create an agreement that serves all parties as best as possible.

>Yes, many more people COULD if given the opportunity, and education, and investment. But not EVERYONE can. And not everyone learns at the same pace.

Sorry. I genuinely do not understand this statement.

It's a statistical fact that not every person can develop the same skillset and inhabit the same role at the same time, yes. I'm not really clear about what that has to do with anything, considering that most large and valuable projects require multiple people with multiple skillsets to realize their potential.

Sorry, I'm a bit baffled by this. Could you elaborate a bit on your "classist" idea for software development a little further as far as how the entire profession should not take part in unionizing "100%" which I take to mean across all businesses and projects?

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#53

Post by jodrellblank »

syspec wrote: post #11
kevingadd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like your wife doesn't like the collective she's a part of. Welcome to collective bargaining. You don't get to pick and choose who is allowed to vote in your local elections, and you don't get to pick and choose which of your coworkers are entitled to representation. If there are bad people in your employee collective, that is mostly a rebuke of the employer for hiring bad people. Or are you arguing that un…

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

Yes they can, it just needs proper process and evidence and not "at will" dismissal.

What about when you have bad apples in the executive team and individual employees can't remove them from the bunch? Isn't it weird and incongruous that shareholders who don't work for the company can collectively vote on and influence the makeup of the company leadership, but employees who work there cannot collectively do that? Is it supposed to be all employees working for the good of the whole, or not?

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#54

Post by crowf »

djur wrote: post #49
stale2002 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you see as the downside? The downside is being forced into a collective bargain agreement, if I wanted to work at whatever company was a union shop. I would much rather negotiate for my own contract. Which is something that I currently do, right now, regarding my tech job employment contract. It has worked out pretty work for me. I've received significant pay raises, that I do not think I would get if I wer…

The vast majority of engineers are not making anywhere near what you are making. The fact that you know a lot of other very well-paid engineers does not actually disprove that.

Exactly. So a unionized tech company would be a company that attracts people who don't have the skills to earn lots of money. I doubt such a company would thrive among competitors with top level programmers

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#55

Post by djur »

crowf wrote: post #54
djur wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of engineers are not making anywhere near what you are making. The fact that you know a lot of other very well-paid engineers does not actually disprove that.

Exactly. So a unionized tech company would be a company that attracts people who don't have the skills to earn lots of money. I doubt such a company would thrive among competitors with top level programmers

The assumption here is that pay consistently corresponds to skill in the tech industry. An alternative factor that comes to mind is geography.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#56

Post by stale2002 »

djur wrote: post #49
stale2002 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you see as the downside? The downside is being forced into a collective bargain agreement, if I wanted to work at whatever company was a union shop. I would much rather negotiate for my own contract. Which is something that I currently do, right now, regarding my tech job employment contract. It has worked out pretty work for me. I've received significant pay raises, that I do not think I would get if I wer…

The vast majority of engineers are not making anywhere near what you are making. The fact that you know a lot of other very well-paid engineers does not actually disprove that.

The original poster asked me what the downside were, and I just told you.

It is a very real downside, to me, and many other highly paid software engineers, that forcing us into collective bargaining agreements would result in us making significantly less money.

So thats the downside. It is very clear, and obvious. We would make less money.

So, given that we would make significantly less money, you can expect us to fight and sabotage efforts to force us into collective bargain agreements.

Good luck, you'll need it. Because right now, the anti-union side, in tech, is winning, and unions are not popular at all.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#57

Post by syspec »

djur wrote: post #55
crowf wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. So a unionized tech company would be a company that attracts people who don't have the skills to earn lots of money. I doubt such a company would thrive among competitors with top level programmers

The assumption here is that pay consistently corresponds to skill in the tech industry. An alternative factor that comes to mind is geography.

You're completely right, but with that geography comes a larger pool of very talented people to compete with.

I think it more or less evens it out

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#58

Post by brnt »

s3r3nity wrote: post #29
tclancy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t want what, a leg to stand on? A seat at the table to bargain with your betters? How is some random data point about your wife’s experience evidence against collective bargaining? What do you see as the downside? “Gee, sure we have a say in our benefits and my salary is way higher, but there’s this one coworker who doesn’t pull their weight.” As opposed to life in a non-union shop, where it’s a workers paradise…

Last I checked doctors, who aren't unionized in the US and are more essential than nurses, are doing just fine.

Doctors are not any more essential than nurses like the piston isn't any more essential than the crankshaft. You need the whole team, working in concert, and there is no other way about it.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#59

Post by Fnoord »

badlucklottery wrote: post #32
deanCommie wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is going to be controversial and slightly classist, but... There is work that is utility work and there is work that isn't. I don't mean skilled or unskilled. A common dunk on the distinction between the two is something like "I'd love to see the CEO of try a day on the line of and see if they still want to call it unskilled labour." No, where I differentiate is jobs where ANYONE can learn the skills, and others…

>I want to be able to promote quickly people who succeed and show an aptitude, and maturity. I want to encourage and incentivize those people to keep reaching for the stars. Ehhh, you can have this and have a union at the same time. And unproductive slacker orgs without unions definitely exist. Pay/promo by seniority isn't some innate property of unions, it's a response to a lack of pay increases by management. If ma…

> Ehhh, you can have this and have a union at the same time. And unproductive slacker orgs without unions definitely exist.

Yes, just look at Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#60

Post by harmoat »

clusterfish wrote: post #23
tclancy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if we pretend that was so, at least you have a bunch. A bunch that can argue for decent healthcare, for reasonable family leave and vacation, for any benefit you care to find important. Otherwise you’re just some schmo talking to your direct manager who has been put in that role as a firewall between you and getting a bigger slice of the pie.

Developed countries have reasonable healthcare, parental leave and vacation minimums provided by the magic of a functional government. If your country doesn't maybe focus on fixing that for everyone. Don't need unions for that.

Reasonable healthcare, parental leave and vacation minimums were not acquired in the countries that have them by "the magic of a functional government" but by people organising in big enough groups to matter and bargaining with the government and employers.
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