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Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

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Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#11

Post by syspec »

kevingadd wrote: post #10
syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

It sounds like your wife doesn't like the collective she's a part of. Welcome to collective bargaining. You don't get to pick and choose who is allowed to vote in your local elections, and you don't get to pick and choose which of your coworkers are entitled to representation. If there are bad people in your employee collective, that is mostly a rebuke of the employer for hiring bad people. Or are you arguing that un…

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#12

Post by kevingadd »

tclancy wrote: post #9
remote_phone wrote: post #4

People forget that many places are extremely lenient when it comes to things like vacation and dress code, etc. They think that when they unionize, the base level of working conditions is what they are currently experiencing and they can only go up from there. But that would be seriously mistaken and I would totally expect employers to play hardball if employees take their benefits for granted and want to play hardba…

Yes, because that is the general approach, companies are giving away all sorts of free money with no expectation of tit for tat as long as you never unionize. The dress code and vacation policy will get worse if you have a collective voice? Where do people living in a capitalist economy get the idea their bosses are socialists who are giving things away?

It'd be presumptuous for me to call this "uniquely american" but there's a really deeply embedded part of the american philosophy that suggests merely having a job is a gift and you owe everything to your employer, even if they abuse you or steal your wages or injure you through neglect or lay you off for getting the flu. People should be grateful that they have their job at McBurgerchain even though it only pays minimum wage and 120hrs/wk at that minimum wage might not be enough to pay for rent and food in their area, if they can even get 120hrs across 3 jobs (they probably can't).

If you look at a lot of the chatter that leads towards discussions of unionization in workplaces these days, it's really mundane stuff and not Politics or Socialism. People talking about blatantly abusive employer behavior, wage theft, poor safety/hygiene, bad benefits, etc - an employer can easily mitigate a lot of this stuff and have happy workers who won't have much reason to unionize, and I think part of the reason unions are so rare in tech to this day is that many tech employees are satisfied. If a tech workplace unionizes I think that's an obvious sign that the employees were unhappy enough to go through all the trouble of doing it, it's not something they'd do on a whim.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#13

Post by kevingadd »

syspec wrote: post #11
kevingadd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like your wife doesn't like the collective she's a part of. Welcome to collective bargaining. You don't get to pick and choose who is allowed to vote in your local elections, and you don't get to pick and choose which of your coworkers are entitled to representation. If there are bad people in your employee collective, that is mostly a rebuke of the employer for hiring bad people. Or are you arguing that un…

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

So how did the bad employees get hired at your workplace and stay there before it unionized? Did the company hire 100% good apples before unionization and then suddenly change its mind and start hiring bad ones? Are you really going to assert that firing people is impossible in a union workplace? We both know that's not true.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#15

Post by brnt »

syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

Corporate overlords, on the other hand, are known for their impeccable and utterly fair behaviour throughout history. Not a single bad apple there! Be a good serf and good things will come to you, heed these words!

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#16

Post by dimator »

syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

I've known plenty of software engineers that don't carry their weight. Some of the big techs make it very easy to do the bare minimum, if that's all you want to do. You don't need a union to have slackers.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#17

Post by remote_phone »

kevingadd wrote: post #8
remote_phone wrote: post #4

People forget that many places are extremely lenient when it comes to things like vacation and dress code, etc. They think that when they unionize, the base level of working conditions is what they are currently experiencing and they can only go up from there. But that would be seriously mistaken and I would totally expect employers to play hardball if employees take their benefits for granted and want to play hardba…

"union bureaucrats that don’t do anything except complicate everyone’s lives" is an interesting assertion to make in this case where the union hasn't even had an opportunity to do anything bad yet. Why does unionizing have to be treated as "hardball" if the union hasn't even made any demands yet? Does the status quo have to be "employees have to do what I want, no questions, even if it's illegal"? Lots of employer mi…

This is why you will never see a union in Silicon Valley software company. The benefits are great and unions are unnecessary. I’m sure there are other places where unions are absolutely a necessity but not in a software company in Silicon Valley.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#18

Post by tclancy »

syspec wrote: post #11
kevingadd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like your wife doesn't like the collective she's a part of. Welcome to collective bargaining. You don't get to pick and choose who is allowed to vote in your local elections, and you don't get to pick and choose which of your coworkers are entitled to representation. If there are bad people in your employee collective, that is mostly a rebuke of the employer for hiring bad people. Or are you arguing that un…

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

Even if we pretend that was so, at least you have a bunch. A bunch that can argue for decent healthcare, for reasonable family leave and vacation, for any benefit you care to find important. Otherwise you’re just some schmo talking to your direct manager who has been put in that role as a firewall between you and getting a bigger slice of the pie.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#19

Post by donatj »

kevingadd wrote: post #13
syspec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

So how did the bad employees get hired at your workplace and stay there before it unionized? Did the company hire 100% good apples before unionization and then suddenly change its mind and start hiring bad ones? Are you really going to assert that firing people is impossible in a union workplace? We both know that's not true.

You can have an apple that does shitty work and pay them 70% what you pay good apples, and everyone's still reasonably happy.

When I have to pay the 70% apple the same amount as the 100% apples, and can't really fire that apple, that's the not fair to the 100% apples.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#20

Post by tclancy »

kevingadd wrote: post #12
tclancy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because that is the general approach, companies are giving away all sorts of free money with no expectation of tit for tat as long as you never unionize. The dress code and vacation policy will get worse if you have a collective voice? Where do people living in a capitalist economy get the idea their bosses are socialists who are giving things away?

It'd be presumptuous for me to call this "uniquely american" but there's a really deeply embedded part of the american philosophy that suggests merely having a job is a gift and you owe everything to your employer, even if they abuse you or steal your wages or injure you through neglect or lay you off for getting the flu. People should be grateful that they have their job at McBurgerchain even though it only pays min…

You wouldn’t understand the temporarily embarrassed millionaires here. It’s also American to be horrified by my compatriots willingness to accept the bare minimum they receive as good as it gets.
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