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Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

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Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#21

Post by tclancy »

remote_phone wrote: post #17
kevingadd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"union bureaucrats that don’t do anything except complicate everyone’s lives" is an interesting assertion to make in this case where the union hasn't even had an opportunity to do anything bad yet. Why does unionizing have to be treated as "hardball" if the union hasn't even made any demands yet? Does the status quo have to be "employees have to do what I want, no questions, even if it's illegal"? Lots of employer mi…

This is why you will never see a union in Silicon Valley software company. The benefits are great and unions are unnecessary. I’m sure there are other places where unions are absolutely a necessity but not in a software company in Silicon Valley.

Nope, this is what dopes everywhere think. It’s scary to ask for more, so you assume you’re getting a fair slice of the pie and never even bother to ask to see the whole thing, much less ask for more. This is the same thought that complains about pro athletes holding out for more millions while never considering how their sport makes billions.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#22

Post by syspec »

kevingadd wrote: post #13
syspec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

So how did the bad employees get hired at your workplace and stay there before it unionized? Did the company hire 100% good apples before unionization and then suddenly change its mind and start hiring bad ones? Are you really going to assert that firing people is impossible in a union workplace? We both know that's not true.

It's damn near impossible, and they can get unfired.

Also I do not work at a unionized employer, my wife does as a nurse at Stanford hospital.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#23

Post by clusterfish »

tclancy wrote: post #18
syspec wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

Even if we pretend that was so, at least you have a bunch. A bunch that can argue for decent healthcare, for reasonable family leave and vacation, for any benefit you care to find important. Otherwise you’re just some schmo talking to your direct manager who has been put in that role as a firewall between you and getting a bigger slice of the pie.

Developed countries have reasonable healthcare, parental leave and vacation minimums provided by the magic of a functional government. If your country doesn't maybe focus on fixing that for everyone. Don't need unions for that.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#24

Post by 6510 »

donatj wrote: post #19
kevingadd wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how did the bad employees get hired at your workplace and stay there before it unionized? Did the company hire 100% good apples before unionization and then suddenly change its mind and start hiring bad ones? Are you really going to assert that firing people is impossible in a union workplace? We both know that's not true.

You can have an apple that does shitty work and pay them 70% what you pay good apples, and everyone's still reasonably happy. When I have to pay the 70% apple the same amount as the 100% apples, and can't really fire that apple, that's the not fair to the 100% apples.

Give them bonuses perhaps?

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#25

Post by deanCommie »

tclancy wrote: post #7
syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

Don’t want what, a leg to stand on? A seat at the table to bargain with your betters? How is some random data point about your wife’s experience evidence against collective bargaining? What do you see as the downside? “Gee, sure we have a say in our benefits and my salary is way higher, but there’s this one coworker who doesn’t pull their weight.” As opposed to life in a non-union shop, where it’s a workers paradise…

This is going to be controversial and slightly classist, but...

There is work that is utility work and there is work that isn't.

I don't mean skilled or unskilled. A common dunk on the distinction between the two is something like "I'd love to see the CEO of try a day on the line of and see if they still want to call it unskilled labour."

No, where I differentiate is jobs where ANYONE can learn the skills, and others where NOT anyone can. These are by the way not purely academic skills, they are some where the differences are physical, though these days there is fewer and fewer of those as humanity got super good at making tools.

Basically I'm saying there are jobs where maybe the CEO wouldn't be able to figure it out on day 1, but with standard training, they would be able to do the job. And with EXPERIENCE they would be able to get better and better.

These are the jobs where salaries should be set by a union, and where your salaries rise directly correlated with experience.

Now let's get to the classist and controversial part. I don't believe software engineering is like that. Yes, many more people COULD if given the opportunity, and education, and investment. But not EVERYONE can. And not everyone learns at the same pace.

I've been in the industry for 15 years since I graduated with my undergrad, and I've been junior, and I've been senior, and I've seen new grads come in and grow, and thrive, and become promoted to senior. And I've seen juniors come in, and struggle, and tread water, and be managed out. For the exact same job.

I want to be able to promote quickly people who succeed and show an aptitude, and maturity. I want to encourage and incentivize those people to keep reaching for the stars.

I am 100% against unions for software development.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#26

Post by throwauwer4545 »

syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

I've noticed unions to have that affect as well.

While it's undeniable that they have a role, historically, they all ultimately seem to make their parent industries incompetent and completely out of touch with the market until the point that they eventually to go belly up and are sold off (not sure about the causation here).

American Automakers, Indian PSUs and the state machinery, stand out in particular in my memory.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#27

Post by stale2002 »

tclancy wrote: post #7
syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

Don’t want what, a leg to stand on? A seat at the table to bargain with your betters? How is some random data point about your wife’s experience evidence against collective bargaining? What do you see as the downside? “Gee, sure we have a say in our benefits and my salary is way higher, but there’s this one coworker who doesn’t pull their weight.” As opposed to life in a non-union shop, where it’s a workers paradise…

> What do you see as the downside?

The downside is being forced into a collective bargain agreement, if I wanted to work at whatever company was a union shop.

I would much rather negotiate for my own contract. Which is something that I currently do, right now, regarding my tech job employment contract.

It has worked out pretty work for me. I've received significant pay raises, that I do not think I would get if I were forced into collective bargain agreements.

> As opposed to life in a non-union shop

I work in a "non-union" shop, in tech, and I make significantly more money than any other example of a "union shop" tech job that I have ever been able to find in the industry.

Feel free to let me know about any "union shop" programmer jobs, that will pay me more than the 300k plus that I make right now. Maybe I'll even consider it.

> A seat at the table to bargain with your betters?

I already do bargain with my employers. And it has resulted in me getting a lot of money for my efforts.

Let me know when those union jobs can get me more than 300k, for someone with ~10 years experience, lol.

And, to be perfectly honest, I haven't even been optimizing as much as I could for salary. If I really was doing that, I could probably go work in finance/quant, and get another 50% raise (Yes, really... I have peers and friends, that have gotten to that)

I don't think any "union shop" tech jobs that exist in the world, right now, match up with that.

I am not even trying to brag, or anything here. The numbers I am throwing around are pretty standard, for people working at top tech companies, and I know this because this is what many of my personal friends, with the same level of experience as me are making. None of them work at "union shops" though.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#28

Post by s3r3nity »

syspec wrote: post #11
kevingadd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like your wife doesn't like the collective she's a part of. Welcome to collective bargaining. You don't get to pick and choose who is allowed to vote in your local elections, and you don't get to pick and choose which of your coworkers are entitled to representation. If there are bad people in your employee collective, that is mostly a rebuke of the employer for hiring bad people. Or are you arguing that un…

When you have unions, the bad apples cannot be removed from the bunch.

See: police unions, teacher unions, etc.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#29

Post by s3r3nity »

tclancy wrote: post #7
syspec wrote: post #3

> A year ago, 80 Google contractors employed by HCL America in Pittsburgh voted to unionize with US Steelworkers—a historic victory for white collar tech workers in the U.S. According to who? My wife is a nurse, in a union, and the stuff she tells me about some of her cohorts getting away with then leveraging the union to avoid being reprimanded/ let go is insane. Additionally there is no incentive to improve, your s…

Don’t want what, a leg to stand on? A seat at the table to bargain with your betters? How is some random data point about your wife’s experience evidence against collective bargaining? What do you see as the downside? “Gee, sure we have a say in our benefits and my salary is way higher, but there’s this one coworker who doesn’t pull their weight.” As opposed to life in a non-union shop, where it’s a workers paradise…

Last I checked doctors, who aren't unionized in the US and are more essential than nurses, are doing just fine.

Re: Google Contractors Say Their Work Is Being Shipped to Poland After Unionizing

#30

Post by starpilot »

s3r3nity wrote: post #29
tclancy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t want what, a leg to stand on? A seat at the table to bargain with your betters? How is some random data point about your wife’s experience evidence against collective bargaining? What do you see as the downside? “Gee, sure we have a say in our benefits and my salary is way higher, but there’s this one coworker who doesn’t pull their weight.” As opposed to life in a non-union shop, where it’s a workers paradise…

Last I checked doctors, who aren't unionized in the US and are more essential than nurses, are doing just fine.

Honest question: is nuance lost on HN? Is everything now just polarized viewpoint vs. outlier anecdote, over and over again? Do we only care about first-order ideas/effects and think that a once-off event discredits institutions that are centuries old?
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