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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Unions can also offer goods things like group bargaining, healthcare and moral support such as SAG/AFTRA and other Hollywood-style guilds. The only downside is you can't do cheap work on the side, but that benefits those who choose not to or cannot join these guilds.

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

Maybe I'm just super autistic (Or as you say, atypical and more autism spectrum biased), but what are arguments against a meritocracy in the workplace?

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Unions are owned/compromised of workers. Workers vote on issues that affect them. Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Absolutely true, but if demand wasn't so high and supply wasn't so short, what happens to worker leverage and t…

The reason pro sports leagues are all unionized is because they are each government sanctioned monopolies and players have otherwise no leverage.

Their talent is their leverage. Some players get paid $100m+ for their talent.

Athletes' unions exist to protect the players at the bottom, who are just talented enough to play at the professional level but aren't superstars, like the offensive line in football or the bench players in basketball.

Notably: many of the athletes' unions predate the era of the monopolistic sports leagues. (The modern NFL, MLB, and NBA are all the products of the mergers of smaller leagues, and their players' unions formed before they achieved monopoly status.)

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#364
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more likely to be true in the case of options or shares of private companies, but for public companies the value of the equity can at least be determined.

Public vs. private probably doesn't matter all that much. I've had equity compensation from most of my jobs, and I never really felt strongly GP's statement of "What's good for shareholders is also good for [...] tech employees". My company's (public) stock could double and it wouldn't materially affect my lifestyle. For non-public companies I've worked for, the equity usually ended up worth $0. In one company, I was…

Interesting. Equity comprises about 50% of my compensation, at my current (public company) job, so changes there do have a significant effect on my overall compensation. That said, since it's not entirely predictable, I still treat it as "bonus" money and try to live only on my salary.

Agree on non-public companies. I've been part of three, one is still going 10 years after I left and two were acquired. Net value of my equity was $0.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#365
post #321
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. European here, let's talk personal experience. The americans have a very unhealthy situation wrt unions, and i'm not surprised people with do-it-yourself and can-do attitudes common in tech are soured up to them. And my impressions are relative to polish culture, where unions are traditionally quite strong…

This is the weird thing. Americans love to complain about how stupid their unions are, and according to some anecdotes, some American unions are indeed pretty stupid. But these are the unions created by Americans. I don't quite understand the underlying cultural issue that leads Americans to create unions they hate. It's got to be something cultural. Or is it something in US law? It seems so easy to fix, but somehow…

The REASON that AMERICANS HATE unions is...

1. Anti-union propaganda and the union-busting efforts of American corporations and their consultants starting in the 1970's leading up through the policies of Reagan.

2. Globalization and the loss of manufacturing jobs.

SADLY, in the interim American wages have been flat since the 70's and class inequality has exploded.

"Had the fruits of the nation’s economic output been shared over the past 45 years as broadly as they were from the end of World War II until the early 1970s, a full-time worker whose taxable income is at the median would instead be making $92,000 to $102,000" instead of $50k. (RAND Corporation) Source: https://www.fastcompany.com/90550015/we-were-shocked-rand-st...

READ:

- https://www.vice.com/en/article/akwwvb/us-employers-spend-do...

- https://www.jwj.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/JohnLogan12_2...

- https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/commentisfree/2018/jun/2...

- https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/starbucks-history-...

- https://whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu/power/history_of_labor_unio...

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_union_busting_in_th...

- https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/how-wal...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#366
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because most companies are private enterprises started by some entrepreneur that had some vision for the good/service that is being produced. Presumably, you and your employer entered into some contract in which you are compensated for your labor. If you find the terms unconscionable, perhaps you should petition your legislators to change the labor laws (this is where democracy is appropriate). As an aside, I do not…

Because management isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and it would be a nice recourse for workers to have some leverage to push back against questionable business decisions. Have you ever worked somewhere where mgmt. overruled engineering concerns with disastrous consequences? [0] Perhaps workplace democracy is too radical, perhaps a workers' union won't make the right business decisions that management can- or…

I won't contest that history is not replete with examples of management failing to listen to warnings from their employees, but the leadership model most places employ is effective because history is also replete with management staying the course even when under doubt and achieving some measure of success.

Also, if the consequences to decisions were always attainable a priori, I doubt management would make bad decisions. It's easy to look at Microsoft and say Ballmer dropped the ball on mobile, but then again they still don't have a competitive product to iOS or Android and are doing well. Was Ballmer wrong/right? Is Nadella wrong/right? It was hard to say in 2007 and it's still difficult to say in 2020.

The Audi example is only a good example in that management is listening to a group of employees who are advocating for a position in which the market is already trending (which also happens to have substantial environmental benefits). We wouldn't applaud BP if they opted to do more drilling at the request of their oil rig workers.

For whatever reason, who ever was responsible for putting your manager in place trusts that person; you can appeal to your manager if you think they are making a bad decision or you can appeal to their manager that you think they are ill suited to their position. After that, you've exhausted your options at that company and aren't owed anything further. I would strongly suggest to any job seekers that if having a seat at the table is important to you, assess that when you are interviewing. Find or start a company in which that is the culture.

Now I do have to caveat all this with that I am 30, no kids, and live in decently sized market for tech. I may be more cavalier with my "if you don't like it, then leave" attitude. I find the ombudsman position interesting and was unaware of the history around it and HR. I will have to look into that more, thank you for the knowledge.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All systems have the potential for corruption. A representational "democracy", compared to other systems, has the least potential for corruption. If unions do in fact give workers more representation/power, than game theory says it is a worthwhile trade off, as we expect average worker gains to be net positive of any corruption losses.

Direct democracy has less of a potential for corruption than representative, especially non nested (separate tires) party based representative democracy.

There are tricky problems here as well.

In direct democracy, a decision still needs to be made on what to vote on. As an example, if you look at California propositions, these aren't necessarily all that well drafted. Often propositions are created by business interests and approved by people coming out of stores who aren't thinking very carefully about what petitions they sign.

And after that point, you're putting an algorithm is in charge of making the final decision. This isn't necessarily better than having a leader in charge, because the leader can maybe think of creative compromises and the algorithm can't.

If you study voting systems you'll see they all have flaws, and they are all very simple-minded algorithms compared to people. Whether they actually capture the "will of the people" is impossible to say since the "will of the people" isn't really a thing. There are just people with a lot of different opinions.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You should travel outside of your bubble. Unionising is not extreme.

Where did I claim unionising is extreme? I claimed that Kickstarter specifically unionised because of extremism, namely, the belief that it's essential to help fund those advocating violence against conservatives (or really, anyone who isn't Marxist). I also claimed that other SV tech firms that unionise will probably do so for similar reasons, rather than the classical (non extreme) reasons that affect everyone like wages or working conditions.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#369
post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Because in tech its easy to just move jobs or negotiate on your own. Unions would just have government in you businesses, and make it harder for workers. Not to mention programmers are cheap and wont pay the union fees. I know I wouldn't I'd just avoid unionized companies.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#370
post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

Aviation isn't about unions though, it's a safety feature. There were a bunch of different roles at the company I worked for:

- High-level requirements author

- Low-level requirements author

- Coder

- Test author

- Test runner

and then each of those had a reviewer, for high-level requirements, low-level requirements, code review, test case review, test process and results review.

The FAA technically only requires that the author and reviewer for each step in the process are different, but the company tried to avoid having the same person write the requirements, code, and tests as well.

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