Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

kqed.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 383 posts

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#181

Post by twblalock »

Apocryphon wrote: post #112
onion2k wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. How do we test this hypothesis? Do we know that tech companies couldn't afford to double the wages of all their staff, or is that an assumption we've made based on high wages relative to other industries ? I imagine the likes of Apple could certainly pay their devs a lot more.

$403k per employee. https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2020/08/research-rev... Not just their devs, but all of their workers.

Based on that data, most FAANG engineers are already paid more than the profit their employers make per-employee.

Yes, a lot of engineers at FAANG make more than $400k total comp. People seem to have a hard time believing that, but it's true. And according to that chart, only two companies actually make that much profit per employee.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#182

Post by ryandrake »

fatnoah wrote: post #98
goatinaboat wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Yet doctors and lawyers and pilots have strong unions in all but name. What do you suppose they know that we don’t? Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees. I’m sorry but thi…

This is more likely to be true in the case of options or shares of private companies, but for public companies the value of the equity can at least be determined.

Public vs. private probably doesn't matter all that much. I've had equity compensation from most of my jobs, and I never really felt strongly GP's statement of "What's good for shareholders is also good for [...] tech employees". My company's (public) stock could double and it wouldn't materially affect my lifestyle. For non-public companies I've worked for, the equity usually ended up worth $0. In one company, I was able to sell all my equity at the height of its stock prices, and made maybe enough for 2 months of rent. I think the idea that equity allows employees and companies to share success is kind of overblown.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#183

Post by Apocryphon »

twblalock wrote: post #181
Apocryphon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$403k per employee. https://www.digitalinformationworld.com/2020/08/research-rev... Not just their devs, but all of their workers.

Based on that data, most FAANG engineers are already paid more than the profit their employers make per-employee. Yes, a lot of engineers at FAANG make more than $400k total comp. People seem to have a hard time believing that, but it's true. And according to that chart, only two companies actually make that much profit per employee.

Should total comp really be used in this comparison, rather than actual salary?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#184

Post by twblalock »

Apocryphon wrote: post #183
twblalock wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on that data, most FAANG engineers are already paid more than the profit their employers make per-employee. Yes, a lot of engineers at FAANG make more than $400k total comp. People seem to have a hard time believing that, but it's true. And according to that chart, only two companies actually make that much profit per employee.

Should total comp really be used in this comparison, rather than actual salary?

Why would only looking at salary be relevant?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#185

Post by michaelt »

criddell wrote: post #65
bhupy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China. they've got the notorious "9-9-6" hours. "9 AM to 9PM, 6 days a week".

Are there a lot of labor unions in China?

The All-China Federation of Trade Unions is the largest trade union in the world, with 302 million members.

Of course, some would say taking the ACFTU as representative of unions is like taking the East India Company as representative of multinational corporations...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#186

Post by michaelt »

tekdude wrote: post #28
ardy42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining. Some existing blue-collar unions have work rules like that, but I think it's a fallacy that a tech worker union would necessarily work exactly the…

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

I don't find the SAG a convincing example, personally.

Reasonable people might debate what should and shouldn't be a union's responsibilities and powers - would we want closed shops to exist? what about job demarcation rules? should the union set rules around hiring, firing and promotions? - but everyone could agree a union should make sure you don't have to have sex with the producer to get a role.

And yet, the Me Too movement reveals this abhorrent behaviour has gone unchecked for years? Obviously, the blame lies with the perpetrators of the crimes - but it was a damn big oversight by the SAG.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#187

Post by friendlybus »

tekdude wrote: post #28
ardy42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining. Some existing blue-collar unions have work rules like that, but I think it's a fallacy that a tech worker union would necessarily work exactly the…

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

You can take the same rules about hollywood union rules forcing lighting technicians and camera crew to have roles, even though the big expensive and hot lights they used to safeguard are long since gone. Last year corridor crew did a video where niko broke down how much money he could save by moving to LED lights and cutting the mandatory crew requirement and run small films at affordable prices.

Everybody thinks they're the actor in the hollywood comparison, and they're not. They're more likely the tech guy holding an outdated lamp under union rules.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#188

Post by save_ferris »

diggernet wrote: post #102
save_ferris wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes. How exactly do you see something like this coming to fruition without labor organization? There’s no way federal law like this happens without some sort of coordinated effort to compel congress to pass such a law.

So don't start at the Federal level. Start local. Which is pretty much how the US is intended to work. California made non-competes non-enforceable. No reason your state can't do the same.

> Start local. Which is pretty much how the US is intended to work.

Fundamentally disagree with you right there. Civil rights, marriage equality, and countless other freedoms bestowed on Americans came from Federal action. If Congress never passed the civil rights act, we might still have segregated bathrooms in half of the US today. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with legislating at the Federal level.

> California made non-competes non-enforceable.

Yeah, back when they ratified their common codes in the 1800’s, it didn’t happen in the modern era. If such legislation were to pass today, you bet labor organizations would be behind it.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#189

Post by newen »

ghaff wrote: post #59
blueline wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or is it a one-off being used to spread fud you replied to this with a one-off anecdote to spread fud

Anyone who has ever worked events will tell you that is hardly a one-off anecdote.

Events and convention rules are absolutely different from rules for employees working inside a company.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#190

Post by ardy42 »

friendlybus wrote: post #187
tekdude wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

You can take the same rules about hollywood union rules forcing lighting technicians and camera crew to have roles, even though the big expensive and hot lights they used to safeguard are long since gone. Last year corridor crew did a video where niko broke down how much money he could save by moving to LED lights and cutting the mandatory crew requirement and run small films at affordable prices. Everybody thinks th…

> You can take the same rules about hollywood union rules forcing lighting technicians and camera crew to have roles, even though the big expensive and hot lights they used to safeguard are long since gone.

I don't know. That reasoning sounds a bit like saying you don't need software engineers anymore because your application runs on a microcomputer, not a mainframe. I'm sure there's more to a lighting technician's role than "hold lights because they're hot."

> Last year corridor crew did a video where niko broke down how much money he could save by moving to LED lights and cutting the mandatory crew requirement and run small films at affordable prices.

Bosses don't like unions, and if you take the perspective of a boss, you probably won't like them either. What else is new?

> Everybody thinks they're the actor in the hollywood comparison, and they're not. They're more likely the tech guy holding an outdated lamp under union rules.

It beats getting dumped onto the street and pivoting suddenly into burger flipping. The point of unions is to protect its workers, not minimize employer costs. If a job is becoming truly obsolete, then the union could force the employer to retrain their workers (like what happened in this video: https://vimeo.com/127605643) or buy time for a more gradual transition.

Heck, if workers trusted they weren't going to get screwed by labor saving technology, they might not resist it as much.

Post reply on HN