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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#61

Post by kristopolous »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #35
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. In USA that is, things can be very different abroad.

Not only but when industrial unions came to power, industrial workers were the highest demand profession.

United artists, AFTRA, WGA, DGA, all formed when their skills were in high demand. There's a natural employer/employee power dynamic that even Adam Smith talks about. If his fanboys only read his books they'd know that.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#62

Post by ry454 »

So long as the software industry is expanding, the salaries are growing and software engineers have freedom to jump ships, I don't see unions coming. The recipe to make a union is to lock thousands of grumpy software engineers in a bureaucratic company with stagnant wages.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#63

Post by ardy42 »

yibg wrote: post #52
tekdude wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

Anti union messaging or just they are more common place? Lots of examples of unions with rigid rules, corrupt practices etc. But so far everyone only points to the screen actors guild as a counter example. Are there many other unions like it?

> But so far everyone only points to the screen actors guild as a counter example. Are there many other unions like it?

IIRC, there are in the movie industry. I think writers, directors, etc. all have their own unions. Also given the nature of construction jobs, I'd be curious how construction trade unions compare.

Different companies in different industries can have quite different structures and cultures (e.g. McDonald's vs GM vs Google). The instantiated example of McDonald's didn't mean future companies had to be like it, and I see no reason why the instantiated example of the UAW means that another type of union structure/culture can't be created for another set of circumstances.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#65

Post by criddell »

bhupy wrote: post #58
radu_floricica wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any country where tech workers are mistreated as a rule?

China. they've got the notorious "9-9-6" hours. "9 AM to 9PM, 6 days a week".

Are there a lot of labor unions in China?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#66

Post by butterfi »

dpc_pw wrote: post #27
abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

I think there are a lot of game developers that would disagree with your assessment.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#67

Post by ry454 »

sanxiyn wrote: post #38
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power > I would rather see more laws universally protecting intellectual workers like e.g. non-enforcability of non-compete clauses and alikes One of this must be incorrect. If tech workers have good negotiating power, they should be able to get rid of non-compete clauses. If they can't, see, that's what union can do (a…

Except that unions will bring their own non-compete non-negotiable agreements.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#68

Post by solidasparagus »

tekdude wrote: post #28
ardy42 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining. Some existing blue-collar unions have work rules like that, but I think it's a fallacy that a tech worker union would necessarily work exactly the…

Yes, people always assume that only one type of union exists, and that it can only really work for low-skill interchangeable workers. That this belief is so widespread is actually a testament to the effectiveness of anti-union messaging... However, not all unions operate on that model. One major example: the Screen Actors Guild > According to SAG's Mission Statement, the Guild sought to: negotiate and enforce collect…

Doesn't it also prevent them from using their real names in their work if anyone already has that name? And don't you have to pay $3k to join + 1.85% of your income (for the majority of actors who make less than $200,000 per year - special rules help the members who make lots of money from having to pay too much)?

Plus you can't work on whatever you want - you are only allowed to work with producers that have an active agreement with the SAG (Global Rule One).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#69

Post by jackcosgrove »

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

How are you defining tech?

If you include IT workers and programmers in certain non-technology companies, I think their position could be improved by unionization.

If you include engineers working for technology companies, unionization is less needed. This group has good working conditions on the whole. Personally when I have been frustrated with corporate work-life, it is usually for reasons that unionization would make worse (office politics, byzantine procedures, unproductive coworkers).

Using the second, narrower definition above, tech workers are paid well and we get to sit in comfortable chairs in air-conditioned offices all day long. I mean, if you work for a startup company it will probably lose money and yet you are paid, sometimes handsomely. It's not as if management is exploiting you if you keep getting paid while the startup is steadily going bankrupt.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I have felt fairly treated by management. If management is not trying to fleece workers, why add the process of a union?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#70

Post by dpc_pw »

abeppu wrote: post #44
dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders. What's good for shareholders is also good for a lot of tech employees. I am skeptical about this. At public companies, it seems like in general shareholders do an ineffective job at reigning in management. See e.g. all the discussions around executive pay, as well as the proportion of shares that are held through passive funds. Within tec…

(Lack of) Control and overseeing management in public (and private) companies is a whole another issue entirely, and it affects all the shareholders alike. I don't think unions help here - they just make everything more complicated.

But the point is - if the company granted me some equity, than I participate in the upside and even if certain decision seems not perfect for me as a employee, and they "just benefit the shareholder", I am too a shareholder, and at least I might get some dollars to wipe away my tears.

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