Tech workers should absolutely unionize it’s in our best interest.
Why do tech unions in other countries not produce the same pay level found in the US?
How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
211–220 of 383 posts
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
As you might have noticed, voting is no guarantee that good leaders are elected, nor does it necessarily prevent corruption. "We the people" is a founding myth, and it's our myth, but it's still a political myth similar to the divine right of kings, a way of justifying the rule of the many by the few. The leaders are not the masses, no matter what anyone pretends. (I'm not saying I have a better idea, but let's not b…
All systems have the potential for corruption. A representational "democracy", compared to other systems, has the least potential for corruption. If unions do in fact give workers more representation/power, than game theory says it is a worthwhile trade off, as we expect average worker gains to be net positive of any corruption losses.
Corruption usually happens on jobs with low pay that noone really want to do but does it anyway due to a good cause. But once in a while you get people that are driven by power and glory, and if the position holds any power they will use it to their own advantage.
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Business isn't a democracy and it shouldn't be one.
Why not?
Because most companies are private enterprises started by some entrepreneur that had some vision for the good/service that is being produced.
Presumably, you and your employer entered into some contract in which you are compensated for your labor. If you find the terms unconscionable, perhaps you should petition your legislators to change the labor laws (this is where democracy is appropriate).
As an aside, I do not understand where the notion that + democracy is always going to be better than . I never would have thought back in college that banding together with my fellow physics majors and demanding what we're taught and how we're graded would produce better outcomes; I choose my school/department because of the reputation resulting from the faculty's decisions. I imagine the same goes with most employees at most companies - a lot of engineers want to work at FAANG because of what is doing. Democracy works well for things you can't opt out of, like society. I doubt Apple products would be as good if Steve Jobs let every engineer into the boardroom.
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#214Earlier quoted context omitted.
a lot of engineers at FAANG make more than $400k total comp This is the problem as I see it: $400k sounds like a good compensation, but we have no idea if that's as high as FAANGs would go. Maybe all those engineers could be on $800k if they'd negotiated better. We don't, and can't, know the answer to this problem. And frankly it doesn't matter if those engineers are happy with $400k, and FAANG companies happy paying…
If both parties are winning what's the problem here? Do you feel compelled to make one party win at the expense of another? Is that a more desirable outcome on net?
I didn't say everyone wins. I said everyone feels like they've won. Those aren't the same.
If I have to split $2,000,000 between you and me, but you don't know how much money there is, then you might be happy with me giving you $400,000. That's $400,000 you didn't have before. Hell yeah, $400k! That's loads. The fact we're both going away happy doesn't make it right though. There's a big disparity there. If you found out that I'd kept 4* what you got you'd have every reason to be pissed about it.
That's what I'm suggesting FAANG companies might be doing - giving developers $400k, which makes them very happy, while keeping a far greater amount for themselves that could have been distributed between the workers at the company had those workers negotiated better by having greater knowledge of the system.
I don't even know if that's really a bad thing if that's what's going on. The line that I originally quoted ("Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power") just made me wonder if it's actually true that demand for tech workers has really driven wages to a natural equilibrium, or whether we just think that's true because $400k sounds like a lot.
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why not?
Because most companies are private enterprises started by some entrepreneur that had some vision for the good/service that is being produced. Presumably, you and your employer entered into some contract in which you are compensated for your labor. If you find the terms unconscionable, perhaps you should petition your legislators to change the labor laws (this is where democracy is appropriate). As an aside, I do not…
Because management isn't always what it's cracked up to be, and it would be a nice recourse for workers to have some leverage to push back against questionable business decisions. Have you ever worked somewhere where mgmt. overruled engineering concerns with disastrous consequences? [0] Perhaps workplace democracy is too radical, perhaps a workers' union won't make the right business decisions that management can- or sometimes they do [1]- but it'd be nice to have some way to voice dissatisfaction with the direction a company is going besides some easily-ignored questions at all-hands. Maybe a channel directly to the board? Well, turns out there used to be something called an ombudsman. [2]
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23535292
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13986889
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. A union isn't just that, though is it? It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues. A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your inte…
This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If…
It's not as simple as "don't join the union". Unions in the US have exclusive bargaining power; if a majority of employees form a legally recognized union, the union contract will apply to even the employees who don't want to join the union.
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Same in Germany, lots of unions in tech.
Why are their salaries so low then? I'm not seeing the advantage here.
I think it should be obvious that unions are not the only factor contributing to salaries.
For instance: Average salary for tech in Germany is roughly twice as high as in Spain, even though they are working in the same market zone and have comparable workers protection. Though there are some differences in fiscal policy like for instance Vat tax (Spain 21% for service industry, Germany 19%).
I believe the main reason why the USA have such a high salary in comparison is because of a few factors: Most importantly a huge zone speaking one single language that by now is spoken throughout the world, leading to a much bigger initial market, thus making it easier to create start ups and selling your goods. So you can easily invest in R&D.
Additionally, silicon valley is home to huge monopolies/duopolies like Google, Apple, Intel etc. And while these might hurt competition and the market as a whole, they also increase the demand for labour in the US.
Another contributing factor, though I don't have any numbers to back it up is that higher education is a privilege in the US whereas in Germany it is a commodity.
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#218What’s the benefit of unions? Because from the outside looking at Teachers unions in America I see that only hurts education and benefits Teachers. It doesn’t help make education better. So it seems like unions protect the employee but damage everything else.
(Serious question I’m super curious why tech unions are a good thing cos I have 0 idea)
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…
> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…
They did collude. It was done in secret because it was illegal. It was fixed by the government, no unions required. Nor could one have helped. A union would not have fixed that unless it had developed some mechanism to discover the conspiracy via other means than the ones the government used.
In fact to claim a union could have avoided this situation is backwards: unions create cross-firm wage fixing agreements as part of their core policy goals.
The facts are that white collar employees that are union members have higher pay[2]
Averaged across all industries, yes: because they engage in industry-wide wage fixing. That's great if you can't command a high rate yourself, sucks if you can as you're chopped down to their level.
But we're not talking about all industries, we're talking about the tech industry. And if you compare the tech industry vs other industries, there are no unions (except this one) and there are high wages.
Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry
#220So how does it work for them? What's the typical pay rate in Kickstarter?
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