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Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

nytimes.com

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Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#61

Post by ginko »

pritovido wrote: post #41
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By contrast some European countries, like Austria, drink a lot of coffee and smoke a lot of tobacco(they just banned indoor smoking last year). National culture plays a huge role in what vices people take on.

I went to Viena three years ago. It shocked me how much they smoke everywhere and also how much sugar addicted they were. The food is soooo sweet, sugar, sugar and sugar everywhere. Other places like Salzburg are different in so many ways. Viena has always been a political, bureaucracy center. Cafeterias in Viena are political institutions, you can imagine Freud or Lenin or Stalin, Stefan Sweig, Carl Jung, Hitler, Ma…

How is the food particularly sweet? The only sweet stuff I can think of are cakes and desserts and those are supposed to be sweet.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#62

Post by glaberficken »

CraigJPerry wrote: post #55
glaberficken wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"...healthcare is universally free in Portugal..." In principle only. In practice: how much have you spent on dentist bills in the past year?

Child birth. Heart attack. Broken leg. Brain tumour. Flu. It’s free in practice.

Yes, most things are free in practice. Just so happens that something critical for day to day general health and well-being (dental health) is not.

It's not by accident that Portugal has oral health on par with the poorest Eastern European countries.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#63

Post by wccrawford »

throwaway_pdp09 wrote: post #40
Synaesthesia wrote: post #16

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

There's an anti-caffeine 'education' programme in the states? For real?

If there is, it's subtle. I've heard about studies that talk about the negatives of caffeine, as well as some that talk about the benefits. But none of that seemed to be pushing an agenda.

Practically everyone around me thinks they need caffeine to get through the day. I'm one of the only people I know who are caffeine-free.

Long ago, I thought caffeine gave me headaches, and I refused to drink it. Then I started having trouble staying away during the day and nothing the doctors did mattered. So I turned to caffeine reluctantly, and it helped for a while. Eventually I was drinking so much caffeine each day that I was getting sick from it.

So I cut back, and then I was falling asleep during the day again. (Or at least feeling exhausted and that I needed to sleep and kind of took a waking nap.)

So I cut off the caffeine again and, no big surprise, it's the same as when I was drinking caffeine. Except that I don't get any caffeine-withdrawal headaches when I can't get enough or forget to drink enough.

I know from the past that telling people they don't need caffeine doesn't work, though. They just won't listen. They have to figure it out themselves.

So yeah... If there's an anti-caffeine education here, it's very subtle.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#64

Post by gspr »

ciceryadam wrote: post #56
unwind wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to [1], Europe is the world's largest coffee market, at 33% of production. North America consumes 19%. Consumption per capita up here in the wonderful Nordics is quite high, with Finland typically leading at 12 kg/person. The corresponding number for the US is around 4.2 kg (9.3 lbs). The Telegraph has a fun list [2] showing the top 20 consumers. [1] https://www.cbi.eu/market-information/coffee/trade-statis…

wow, 1 kg per month means 133 shots of espresso a month - roughly 4.5 espresso shots every day, including weekends.

Sounds about right for me here in Norway. I really need to cut back.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#65

Post by geocar »

galfarragem wrote: post #59
adamcharnock wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now, and these are some excellent comments. Especially the first point. I'd also add that there is still a Heroin problem, albeit diminished. It is not unusual to see someone walking though the local village, out-of-their head drunk at 9am on a Wednesday. It isn't alcohol though, it's Heroin. But it is also an economically poor area. The weather is amazing and the…

Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 200ml beer not a pint. > most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners. Businesses prefer to deal with costumers able to pay more (or quicklier) for the same services/products. (edited - typo)

> Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 20ml beer.

20ml is a very small amount of beer. Maybe you meant something else?

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#66

Post by x87678r »

I saw somewhere there was some confusion in translation what decriminalization means, as Portugal has Roman Law as opposed to Common Law found in English speaking countries. Portugal "decriminalization" of drugs left it in a similar state to British law anyway. I can't find a reference now though - does anyone know more?

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#67

Post by jorge-d »

geocar wrote: post #65
galfarragem wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 200ml beer not a pint. > most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners. Businesses prefer to deal with costumers able to pay more (or quicklier) for the same services/products. (edited - typo)

> Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 20ml beer. 20ml is a very small amount of beer. Maybe you meant something else?

Yes he meant 20 cl, which is called a "Fino" (or "imperial" depending on the region)

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#68

Post by paulific »

geocar wrote: post #65
galfarragem wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 200ml beer not a pint. > most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners. Businesses prefer to deal with costumers able to pay more (or quicklier) for the same services/products. (edited - typo)

> Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 20ml beer. 20ml is a very small amount of beer. Maybe you meant something else?

Microbrewery? ;-)

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#69

Post by jamexcb »

adamcharnock wrote: post #47
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now, and these are some excellent comments. Especially the first point. I'd also add that there is still a Heroin problem, albeit diminished. It is not unusual to see someone walking though the local village, out-of-their head drunk at 9am on a Wednesday. It isn't alcohol though, it's Heroin. But it is also an economically poor area. The weather is amazing and the…

"I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now" Not long enough! I'm from Castelo Branco and coffee is not $0.15... not even a "carioca de limão". Needle exchange program started 1993 along with other programs like "metadoda" to help addiction. With a needle they also provided condoms and an open door if you wanted help. During the 80's you could find needles everywhere, people stealing from their own parents, houses, business, everyone knew someone with drug problems. Was a mess. And even worst in big cities. The government also start ending slums. Decriminalization was not the start of this "war"!

The situation is not perfect, and will never be, but is a LOT better than before! Portugal is a lot safer. The crime that you talk about is probably not drug related and probably not local people. Just read the news. Did you find any place to sell used things? No except for gold.

And if you find someone "drunk" at 9am you bet he is drunk lol "evita a ressaca, mantente bebado" something like "void hangover, stay drunk" every village has a chronic drunk! Maybe now the biggest problem is alcool, not heavy drugs. Why do you think police stop people at 9am and force them to do an alcohol test? They are drinking since 6am!

Regarding your ISP. Your target is people in a rural area? In one of the most less dense population area in Portugal? I will be waiting for the pricing. Good Luck.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#70

Post by at_a_remove »

varispeed wrote: post #60
howlgarnish wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Needle exchanges are more about preventing multiple people from using the same needle, which is an excellent way to transmit diseases like hepatitis, HIV, etc.

Yes this is helpful in that way, but call me cynical - without removing the market from the hands of criminals, what it does is ensures that the consumer will be a paying client a little bit longer. But if a dealer messes up and mixes the Fentanyl unevenly, the clean needle won't help much.

Dealers are typically not cutting their products with HIV or hepatitis virii.
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