Live data from Hacker News

Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

nytimes.com

31–40 of 107 posts

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#31

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

By contrast some European countries, like Austria, drink a lot of coffee and smoke a lot of tobacco(they just banned indoor smoking last year). National culture plays a huge role in what vices people take on.

According to [1], Europe is the world's largest coffee market, at 33% of production. North America consumes 19%.

Consumption per capita up here in the wonderful Nordics is quite high, with Finland typically leading at 12 kg/person. The corresponding number for the US is around 4.2 kg (9.3 lbs). The Telegraph has a fun list [2] showing the top 20 consumers.

[1] https://www.cbi.eu/market-information/coffee/trade-statistic... [2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/countri...

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#32
post #26

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

> Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works! Are there any scientific facts which would back this? To me it feels like there have been several other causes to that which were much more relevant. Not allowing people to smoke inside, vaping and smoking getting "out of fashion" were much more successful. It's just not cool anymore and those who still want to smoke are being c…

It's not cool to smoke anymore because of all the aducation and PR campaigns.

The decline started decades before vaping and bans on smoking inside. It started when the message changed. In the US "peak smoking" occurred in the 1960s and consumptions has been decreasing ever since [1]

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK294310/figure/ch2.f1/

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#33
A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read:

- The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see the lumping of 'heavy' drugs but (although decriminalized) Cocaine consumption in Portugal was marginal at the time (mostly because the majority of the population couldn't afford it). The main precipitator was Heroin consumption.

- These programs served as a 'trojan horse' anchor point to bring these, often homeless/missing, people back into the healthcare system. For added controversy for the americans out there, healthcare is universally free in Portugal.

- There was a clear rupture point both in crime rates and the prison system capacity due to the heroin epidemic. Police forces could no longer be bothered with the 'noise' of the numerous small possessions of 'non-heavy' drugs like haxixe or marijuana. Offloading that to mental health practioners was also logistically useful for law enforcement.

- It took a considerable amount of additional healthcare funding for these programs to be implemented. This would _not_ have been possible for an economy like Portugal without supplementary funds from the European Union economic development programs.

- I am very suspicious of the counter-argument insinuation that the program initially _caused_ an increase in crime rates and consumption, because the start of the program also matched the start of a fairly large economic downturn. The main idea of the program was that people could go and ask for help, without the fear of being put in jail. If you have a desperate person, willing to do desperate things, not pushing them against a corner is usually a good policy for crime rates.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#34

To note, in 2001 Portugal has decriminalized possession of small quantities of drugs, for first time offenders. Drug trafficking is still just as illegal as ever. There are no cannabis shops or pervasive cannabis advertisement, as opposed to US liberal states, for example CO or WA. > But Portugal’s experience is often misunderstood. Although it decriminalized the use of all illicit drugs in small amounts in 2001, inc…

Take a look at the US per-capita incarceration rate over time [1]. Since the war on drugs began, it has grown 5x over what appears to have been a long-term steady state.

The war on drugs is a make-work jobs program for people who can't build anything useful. Relative to skill, these are well-paying stable jobs.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/U....

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#35

During the last years Portugal is doing a great job in a lot of fields like education or economy. A great example for southern Europe countries

We did a lot of good things, but I wouldn't say those are the samples we want to use as examples for other countries.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#36
post #9
post #8

British Columbia’s medical health officer recently gave nurses the ability to prescribe opioid replacement drugs to improve the supply. Many more people are dying from toxic street drugs than are dying from COVID-19. It’s a “shadow pandemic” that has been raging for decades and is only getting worse as border closures make it harder for gangs to move drugs like heroin and fentanyl across borders, leading to shortages…

do you think some pay back from China for the opium wars is part of the dynamic?

The opiates crisis was driven and enabled by US pharma marketing practices. Internationally-mailed fentanyl was only a small part of the problem.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#37
post #36
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you think some pay back from China for the opium wars is part of the dynamic?

The opiates crisis was driven and enabled by US pharma marketing practices. Internationally-mailed fentanyl was only a small part of the problem.

US opiate deaths are now dominated by fentanyl and related synthetic analogues:

https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2020/p0318-data-show-chan...

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#38

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

Unfortunately, I think for many in America, the conversation need not even advance to discussing efficiency, effectiveness or value. Government propaganda, a good deal of it channelled through TV and Hollywood have so thuroughly established unrepentant drug users as villians that many people want it prosecuted on its face for its immorality. Lawmakers find it difficult to let up on drug crimes because they are quickl…

The conversation in America, on any topic, is between two extreme sides which get further apart and further unreasonable as time passes. Fast forwarding circa 2021, one side wants to throw anyone with 1g of marijuana in a 30ft radius from their car into jail for 10 years, the other wants free heroin dispensing machines in schools.

More seriously, the big distinction is between drug users and drug dealers. The former are usually victims and deserve our collective help, the latter are usually predators and deserve to rot in jail. I haven't followed Hollywood in the past decade, but in my recollection Hollywood used to correctly vilify drug dealers.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#39
Funny how Europeans aren’t trigger happy - they wont immediately jump to killing people or imprisoning them, but look at alternative solutions. Americans need a war, be it at home or abroad, classwars, wars on drugs, wars on each other over who is a dem who is a rep. They could simply learn lessons from the old world and adopt them and they would be better off in many areas. Instead they start “wars”.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#40

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

There's an anti-caffeine 'education' programme in the states? For real?
Post reply on HN