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Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

nytimes.com

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Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#51

Post by glaberficken »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

>"...healthcare is universally free in Portugal..."

In principle only.

In practice: how much have you spent on dentist bills in the past year?

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#52

Post by varispeed »

base wrote: post #45
varispeed wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic It seems like these problems are not directly caused by the drug, but by the fact users cannot buy clean medical grade with a safe method of administration. Portugal model doesn't seem to address that, but only makes consumption slightly more "comfortable" to the users.

Portugal have needle exchange programs and places with health practitioners for people to shoot drugs, this last point was very controversial when it was implemented. Nowadays there are even mobile sites for this: https://idpc.net/alerts/2019/07/inside-portugal-s-first-mobi...

That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway. Good program would also give out medical grade clean heroin like they do in Switzerland. Clean heroin is relatively safe contrary to popular opinion. This removes the dealers from that segment of the market or at least severely reduces the sales volume.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#53

Post by severine »

bismuthsalt wrote: post #38
DubiousPusher wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, I think for many in America, the conversation need not even advance to discussing efficiency, effectiveness or value. Government propaganda, a good deal of it channelled through TV and Hollywood have so thuroughly established unrepentant drug users as villians that many people want it prosecuted on its face for its immorality. Lawmakers find it difficult to let up on drug crimes because they are quickl…

The conversation in America, on any topic, is between two extreme sides which get further apart and further unreasonable as time passes. Fast forwarding circa 2021, one side wants to throw anyone with 1g of marijuana in a 30ft radius from their car into jail for 10 years, the other wants free heroin dispensing machines in schools. More seriously, the big distinction is between drug users and drug dealers. The former…

> the other wants free heroin dispensing machines in schools.

Even followed with a "more seriosly", that's an unfair and misleading representation.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#54

Post by hypnotist »

adamcharnock wrote: post #47
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now, and these are some excellent comments. Especially the first point. I'd also add that there is still a Heroin problem, albeit diminished. It is not unusual to see someone walking though the local village, out-of-their head drunk at 9am on a Wednesday. It isn't alcohol though, it's Heroin. But it is also an economically poor area. The weather is amazing and the…

starting ISP - that is very cool! What about Portuguese language ? do you need to able to speak to be accepted there ?

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#55

Post by CraigJPerry »

glaberficken wrote: post #51
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

>"...healthcare is universally free in Portugal..." In principle only. In practice: how much have you spent on dentist bills in the past year?

Child birth. Heart attack. Broken leg. Brain tumour. Flu.

It’s free in practice.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#56

Post by ciceryadam »

unwind wrote: post #31
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By contrast some European countries, like Austria, drink a lot of coffee and smoke a lot of tobacco(they just banned indoor smoking last year). National culture plays a huge role in what vices people take on.

According to [1], Europe is the world's largest coffee market, at 33% of production. North America consumes 19%. Consumption per capita up here in the wonderful Nordics is quite high, with Finland typically leading at 12 kg/person. The corresponding number for the US is around 4.2 kg (9.3 lbs). The Telegraph has a fun list [2] showing the top 20 consumers. [1] https://www.cbi.eu/market-information/coffee/trade-statis…

wow, 1 kg per month means 133 shots of espresso a month - roughly 4.5 espresso shots every day, including weekends.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#57

Post by galfarragem »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

It's not the first time the NYT insists in this idea. Ok, it's good advertisement to our tourism but this is just fake news.

I grew up in one of the "drug towns" of the late 80's/early 90's in Portugal. It was bad, really bad. There wasn't any extended family without a drug problem. That generation, bornt after the 1974 revolution, now in the mid 40's, was almost erased from there. Some died and those remaining, after a life of petty crime and prison, eventually escaped.

Completely agree with your comment. I would just add another relevant factor to the roll: decriminalization gave even more visibility to the addiction problem and newer generations didn't like what they saw. It wasn't cool to use drugs anymore.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#58

Post by howlgarnish »

varispeed wrote: post #52
base wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Portugal have needle exchange programs and places with health practitioners for people to shoot drugs, this last point was very controversial when it was implemented. Nowadays there are even mobile sites for this: https://idpc.net/alerts/2019/07/inside-portugal-s-first-mobi...

That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway. Good program would also give out medical grade clean heroin like they do in Switzerland. Clean heroin is relatively safe contrary to popular opinion. This removes the dealers from that segment of the market or at least severely reduces the sales volume.

Needle exchanges are more about preventing multiple people from using the same needle, which is an excellent way to transmit diseases like hepatitis, HIV, etc.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#59

Post by galfarragem »

adamcharnock wrote: post #47
DoingIsLearning wrote: post #33

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now, and these are some excellent comments. Especially the first point. I'd also add that there is still a Heroin problem, albeit diminished. It is not unusual to see someone walking though the local village, out-of-their head drunk at 9am on a Wednesday. It isn't alcohol though, it's Heroin. But it is also an economically poor area. The weather is amazing and the…

Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 200ml beer not a pint.

> most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners.

Businesses prefer to deal with costumers able to pay more (or quicklier) for the same services/products.

(edited - typo)

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#60

Post by varispeed »

howlgarnish wrote: post #58
varispeed wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway. Good program would also give out medical grade clean heroin like they do in Switzerland. Clean heroin is relatively safe contrary to popular opinion. This removes the dealers from that segment of the market or at least severely reduces the sales volume.

Needle exchanges are more about preventing multiple people from using the same needle, which is an excellent way to transmit diseases like hepatitis, HIV, etc.

Yes this is helpful in that way, but call me cynical - without removing the market from the hands of criminals, what it does is ensures that the consumer will be a paying client a little bit longer. But if a dealer messes up and mixes the Fentanyl unevenly, the clean needle won't help much.
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