Live data from Hacker News

Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

nytimes.com

41–50 of 107 posts

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#41

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

By contrast some European countries, like Austria, drink a lot of coffee and smoke a lot of tobacco(they just banned indoor smoking last year). National culture plays a huge role in what vices people take on.

I went to Viena three years ago. It shocked me how much they smoke everywhere and also how much sugar addicted they were.

The food is soooo sweet, sugar, sugar and sugar everywhere.

Other places like Salzburg are different in so many ways. Viena has always been a political, bureaucracy center.

Cafeterias in Viena are political institutions, you can imagine Freud or Lenin or Stalin, Stefan Sweig, Carl Jung, Hitler, Marx, Goethe, just there, because they went there.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#42
Not sure why this policy is touted as a champion example how to deal with the drug "problem". Only thing it does it reduces exposure of drug consumers to law enforcement harassment while at the same time helps organised crime making more money. I would rather look into why some people promote this and maybe look into their finances. Drug use is natural for intelligent beings and prohibition of that is like trying to ban music or sex. It will never work, but will create a plethora of problems that we experience. From the rise of organised crime to people being unable to access medication they need. It is being tolerated by the population because of massive propaganda and manipulation (for example someone done something bad? Make sure to mention they used cannabis or other drug even if that had nothing to do with the thing that has been done). It is in a way similar to how it was possible to ban same sex intercourse in some countries - people were made to believe it was a "sin". Many health issues are caused by the contamination in drugs available on the streets, that are attributed to drugs themselves. Some popular drugs could be much safer if you could buy a medical grade. In other words it is another money maker based on people suffering and deception and promotion of Portugal model looks very suspicious.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#43

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

> which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic

It seems like these problems are not directly caused by the drug, but by the fact users cannot buy clean medical grade with a safe method of administration. Portugal model doesn't seem to address that, but only makes consumption slightly more "comfortable" to the users.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#44
post #21

There was a RAND study many years ago which showed that, from a pure cost benefit point of view, the best way to deal with drugs is through education and treatment, not policing and punishment. Eg Americans today smoke a lot less tobacco and drink less coffee too. Education works!

> drink less coffee Really? Curious about this, because everyone around me (including me) drinks a metric crap ton of caffeine, either in tea, coffee, or energy drinks.

Whaa??

Coffee consumption has dropped more than 50 percent in 70 years https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/u-s-coffee-consumption-had...

Why??

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#45

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

> which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic It seems like these problems are not directly caused by the drug, but by the fact users cannot buy clean medical grade with a safe method of administration. Portugal model doesn't seem to address that, but only makes consumption slightly more "comfortable" to the users.

Portugal have needle exchange programs and places with health practitioners for people to shoot drugs, this last point was very controversial when it was implemented. Nowadays there are even mobile sites for this: https://idpc.net/alerts/2019/07/inside-portugal-s-first-mobi...

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By contrast some European countries, like Austria, drink a lot of coffee and smoke a lot of tobacco(they just banned indoor smoking last year). National culture plays a huge role in what vices people take on.

I went to Viena three years ago. It shocked me how much they smoke everywhere and also how much sugar addicted they were. The food is soooo sweet, sugar, sugar and sugar everywhere. Other places like Salzburg are different in so many ways. Viena has always been a political, bureaucracy center. Cafeterias in Viena are political institutions, you can imagine Freud or Lenin or Stalin, Stefan Sweig, Carl Jung, Hitler, Ma…

> I went to Viena three years ago. It shocked me how much they smoke everywhere

This is history now. But I agree that it was very bad, it was part of Austria's "coffee house culture" to have the stale smoke odour everywhere (furniture, curtains etc.). It was much worse in the 80's and earlier though.

The sugar addiction is mainly due to the influence of bohemian cuisine and popular sweet snacks like "Manner Schnitten".

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#47

A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read: - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see th…

I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now, and these are some excellent comments. Especially the first point.

I'd also add that there is still a Heroin problem, albeit diminished. It is not unusual to see someone walking though the local village, out-of-their head drunk at 9am on a Wednesday. It isn't alcohol though, it's Heroin. But it is also an economically poor area. The weather is amazing and the place is gorgeous, but for someone raised here who doesn't manage to escape it can also be a trap. Many of the older people work in the fields in the morning, the in the late afternoon they meet in the cafes and chat about village life. Coffee is $0.15, a beer is $0.7. There a very few younger people. Those that can leave have left for a city. The ones who remain are that ones who were not able to leave. I spoke with the local President last week and he himself said that the area has become a skills desert.

So yes, I think the route to Heroin addition looks something like this. Get financially stuck in the local area. Get a bad reputation for being lazy. Try to become YouTube/Insta famous. Give up. Turn on those that tried to help. Drink & smoke weed as an escape. When those stop working try Heroin. I know a couple of people in my village that are on this path right now.

There is some crime here. It seems to fall into two categories. First is petty crime where something goes missing that's worth about $100. That's enough to quickly sell for immediate cash (likely for some form of drug). This has happened to me twice, and I don't really mind.

There is more 'organised' crime where a place gets methodically burgled when someone is away. I know people this has happened to.

There is a rapidly growing contingent of foreigners here now, and we're mostly accepted. Economically, I get the impression that most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners. Even the guy that sells firewood says that 95% of his customers are now foreigners, and that he prefers it that way. There are lots more foreigners arriving too (leaving cities due to covid, basically), very few Portuguese people being added. Most people in my village are over 60. It'll be interesting to see how the demographics play out over the coming years.

Anyway, maybe that is of some interest. The region of Portugal I am in is Castelo Branco. I'm starting an ISP here too: https://gardunha.net

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#48
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> drink less coffee Really? Curious about this, because everyone around me (including me) drinks a metric crap ton of caffeine, either in tea, coffee, or energy drinks.

Whaa?? Coffee consumption has dropped more than 50 percent in 70 years https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/u-s-coffee-consumption-had... Why??

keep in mind that this is in gallons per capita, not in grams coffee beans or in a caffeine equivalent. So the stats may be misleading: People in 1960 would drink filter coffee. Today, they may take an espresso. Roughly same amount of ground coffee per cup, but less liquid. Then again, the stats for coffee beans per capita may trend in the same direction. We have other sources of caffeine today: You may drink a coke instead of a coffee when you're feeling sleepy.

Re: Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War

#50
One issue with drugs policy, I mean in general total prohibition, is that it has come about for moral and emotional (even religious in some case) reasons, like the prohibition of alcohol in the USA once had.

This can be seen in the fact that use is usually a crime. There are no other substances, however nasty they might be, that are a crime to drink/eat/inject. To me this elevates the use of drugs to some sort of sin for, really, arbitrary reasons.

This makes taking a pragmatic and facts-based approach difficult.

Post reply on HN