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Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

wsj.com

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Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#511

Post by davrosthedalek »

chunky1994 wrote: post #492
ravila4 wrote: post #434

I feel like this thread has a lot of bias coming from bad experiences in the computer science field. While I do understand the bad practices of many tech companies, I think the picture is very different when you look at careers in other STEM fields, such as biology, chemistry, and physics. H1B visas are very important for foreign students in these fields particularly those hoping to pursue careers in academia. H1B vi…

I fail to see the "problem" here. Most academia STEM jobs are incredibly competitive, postdocs less so than professorships but for fundamental science it is nearly indisputable that academia is flush with labour. If universities deem it too hard to raise postdoc wages across the board (or for specific foreign students) due to a lack of grant funding then they will still have ample choice of American students who go o…

It's very simple. If it's harder for foreign people to become postdocs/profs in the US, the quality of US research will fall. Quickly.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#512

Post by 29athrowaway »

ravila4 wrote: post #434

I feel like this thread has a lot of bias coming from bad experiences in the computer science field. While I do understand the bad practices of many tech companies, I think the picture is very different when you look at careers in other STEM fields, such as biology, chemistry, and physics. H1B visas are very important for foreign students in these fields particularly those hoping to pursue careers in academia. H1B vi…

No doubt that H-1B has brought many talented people to the US that have made enourmous contributions. But this has been out of random chance rather than design. The program needs calibration.

The H-1B visa program currently requires to have a "bachelor's degree" or equivalent. When you open the door to any "bachelor's degree or equivalent" from anywhere in the world, results are pretty random. You can get a freaking genius, or a person that cannot implement fizzbuzz, and anything in between.

I think the solution is to give priority to the most skilled applicants in the pool, in this way, the cheaper talent will be left behind and wage depression becomes harder to achieve.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#513

Post by AlphaSite »

ravila4 wrote: post #489
yowlingcat wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is convenient for the country to attract and retain their talent, of which there is currently a shortage. I think this subtle misdirection is how the lie gets slipped in. It's not that there is a shortage for talent. It's that there is a shortage for talent available at the price point that corporations want. Does that mean we should create an indentured servitude system to make that available? The whole idea of…

In my view, we can never not have a shortage of talent when it comes to scientific disciplines - at any pricepoint. The beauty of bringing more researchers to the country is that they eventually help create as many or more jobs than they "take".

I think you meant to say there will never be an excess of talent? (If I’m reading your comment correctly)

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#514

Post by tuna-piano »

jedberg wrote: post #9

Credit where credit is due, this is a good move. The H1B program has been abused for a long time. It sounds like these changes should help make it too expensive for the fraudulent abuse to continue.

I have heard stories (that don't seem too uncommon) of unscrupulous companies doing a variety of things - including charging the hopeful visa recipient payments to secure a job, paying the required salary only for the months leading up to the H1B interview and then lowering the salary immediately after, etc.

Not sure what fraud these new rules will prevent, if they are implemented.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#515

Post by jedberg »

Spinnaker_ wrote: post #388
jedberg wrote: post #74

I agree 100% with you. My view is even more extreme, I think we should allow anyone who passes a criminal background check to be able to get a work visa, with no quotas. But barring that pipe dream, this seems like a good interim step.

Asymmetric access to the work force is probably the most valuable right that most HN readers have. Why should we want to give that up? I struggle to see how your idea would be better for any Americans, except the owner-class.

> I struggle to see how your idea would be better for any Americans

A rising tide (growing economy) lifts all boats. Think of all the services that would need to expand -- markets, restaurants, hair salons, etc.

Furthermore, immigrants contribute more to the tax base than citizens because they pay the same income taxes without getting all the deductions, they pay sales taxes and other taxes, and do not get the same benefits.

It's well established that an immigrant with a job is a net contributor to both the economy and the tax base.

Do this thought experiment -- so many immigrants come to the US and contribute so much to the tax base that there is enough to pay every US citizen $75,000 a year in UBI and provide universal healthcare for citizens. Now you can do whatever you want, work or not, it doesn't matter.

That's why it's good for citizens.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#516

Post by [deleted] »

yowlingcat wrote: post #495
ravila4 wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, we can never not have a shortage of talent when it comes to scientific disciplines - at any pricepoint. The beauty of bringing more researchers to the country is that they eventually help create as many or more jobs than they "take".

What leads you to say that? I'd take the counterpoint. Much of what passes for "science" these days is glorified p-hacking for conference proceeding churn and sweatshop adjunct work to pump out a minimum amount of monetizable IP to underwrite an ever bloating university administration complex. It seems closer to scientism than to science for me. And I think that is the natural result of intellectual pursuit being dil…

[deleted]

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#517

Post by chunky1994 »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #511
chunky1994 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fail to see the "problem" here. Most academia STEM jobs are incredibly competitive, postdocs less so than professorships but for fundamental science it is nearly indisputable that academia is flush with labour. If universities deem it too hard to raise postdoc wages across the board (or for specific foreign students) due to a lack of grant funding then they will still have ample choice of American students who go o…

It's very simple. If it's harder for foreign people to become postdocs/profs in the US, the quality of US research will fall. Quickly.

Citation heavily needed here. I find it hard to believe on face value that foreign researchers are necessarily better than US researchers; especially given the number of both foreign and domestic university graduates from U.S universities is much less than the available postdoc and professorship appointments in STEM.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#518

Post by ravila4 »

yowlingcat wrote: post #495
ravila4 wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view, we can never not have a shortage of talent when it comes to scientific disciplines - at any pricepoint. The beauty of bringing more researchers to the country is that they eventually help create as many or more jobs than they "take".

What leads you to say that? I'd take the counterpoint. Much of what passes for "science" these days is glorified p-hacking for conference proceeding churn and sweatshop adjunct work to pump out a minimum amount of monetizable IP to underwrite an ever bloating university administration complex. It seems closer to scientism than to science for me. And I think that is the natural result of intellectual pursuit being dil…

On the comment regarding "p-hacking". I think that is a separate issue altogether and irrelevant to the discussion. Universities have essentially become businesses and they push scientists to "publish or perish". If anything, it is a case for democratizing science even more.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#519

Post by KerryJones »

greatwave1 wrote: post #313
KerryJones wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is great, thanks for putting it together. What's the source of your data? It would be great to be able to sort by the median salary (maybe highlight which companies are taking advantage). It would also be useful to compare it with "median non-H1B salary" which also might highlight where people are taking advantage.

Thanks! Data is sourced from the Department of Labor: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/performance If you click the column heading in the second table, you should be able to sort by median salary for the major H1B employers. Any suggestions on where to find non-H1B median salary data, aside from doing something like scraping Glassdoor?

Oops, thought I had clicked on the heading. Thanks!

I think some digging would be required, but I believe it's required by public companies, there are some sources like here: https://www.wsj.com/graphics/how-does-your-pay-stack-up/

The part that is still problematic is that it obviously varies by region, definitely not an easy problem.

Scraping Glassdoor might be easier/more accurate.

Re: Trump administration announces overhaul of H1B visa program requiring higher pay

#520

Post by dudul »

nrmitchi wrote: post #309
hal9000-tng wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is really bad. Families are going to get told to leave. I’m surprised that there is no discussion on this thread about the impact to people who haven’t done anything wrong. It's not a moral issue (except for the big H-1B mills that are gaming the system.) But nothing has changed: these are not an offer of citizenship. They are temporary work visas with no guarantees: an opportunity to do temporary specialty wo…

> these are not an offer of citizenship No one said that it was, but there is a difference between submitting for an extension X months ago and fully expecting to get it, and then the rules changing out from under you and being told "No. I understand you've been here for 10 years, but pack up all your shit and leave". 5 years ago it was technically "and leave tonight" (which I'm sure you understand is unreasonable).…

I dont think an H1B holder can stay for 10 years, unless the rule changed since I had one, but 10ish years ago it was 6 years max.
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