Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#261

Post by bdamm » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

gravitas wrote: post #162

fudged71 wrote: post #46

Tesla has a history of using remote diagnostics to snitch on drivers instead of allowing investigators to do their job. It’s a valid concern that your car manufacturer will use the interior cameras to blame a crime on you. These automatic tagging features also bring to question the bias in algorithms. What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? Is it possible that a safe driver with ADHD or Turrets etc might b…

> What does this mean for drivers with disabilities? You mention ADHD and Turrets; a leg-disabled person (e.g. paralyzed waste down) can still drive just fine, special hand-operated equipment is installed to a car to allow the hands to take over for the foot pedals. By design this driver may be looking down frequently at their controls (let's assume not everyone is a pro driver yet and knows them by heart) which coul…

While I agree with the concern, I think there's almost zero chance that a neural net trained on people looking at phones would classify a driver looking at hand controls as that same thing. The neural net would more likely have another classification of "unknown attention", being unable to conclusively classify the driver's attention.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#262

Post by scarmig » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

aspaviento wrote: post #257

missosoup wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population. > In reality, only a tiny proportion of pe…

> For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You say that as if there weren't any other options. You have public transport and you can share a car (and expenses) with someone who has your same destination. > For most people, it's a life and family destroying sentence. Dying in a car accident is literally a death…

> You say that as if there weren't any other options. You have public transport and you can share a car (and expenses) with someone who has your same destination.

So, how does this work, exactly? So you set up carpooling with a coworker. And then one day you don't sleep well. Luckily enough, they're there to pick you up so you don't have to drive! ...but what happens when it's your turn to drive? You tell them, whoops, I'm tired today, so you're going to have to drive and get your spouse to change their plans so that you have access to a car? Or maybe they're always the one driving... what happens on days that they're tired? They cancel and you both have to find your own way via public transit?

Like what are the specific logistics here, accounting for failure modes? Does it amount to "spend $100 on Uber on days after a mediocre night's sleep"?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#263

Post by missosoup » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:55 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #255

spike021 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this comment is a plethora of words trying to win an argument how falling asleep at the wheel shouldn't be considered unsafe is incredible.

That's an ungenerous reading of the comment. They would agree that falling asleep at the wheel is unsafe. We've designed a system, however, that is set up such that it's bound to happen sometimes. Not everyone can call in to work and tell their boss "sorry, I slept badly last night, I'm not coming in" or order a $60 Uber to get somewhere on a whim. Moralizing at people is just virtue signaling.

In one paragraph you've conveyed my point better than I could across multiple comments. This is the heart of what I was getting at.

This, and the fact that the HN demographic, mostly being techies, seem to be a bit disconnected from what real life looks like to 80%+ of the population of the world. A few instances per year of not coming in to work due to poor sleep or having to order Uber wouldn't just inconvenicence them - it would completely destroy their lives along with their children/families. People are doing what they need to do to survive and look after their loved ones.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#264

Post by Ancapistani » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:00 PM UTC

aspaviento wrote: post #257

missosoup wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population. > In reality, only a tiny proportion of pe…

> For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You say that as if there weren't any other options. You have public transport and you can share a car (and expenses) with someone who has your same destination. > For most people, it's a life and family destroying sentence. Dying in a car accident is literally a death…

A very large number of people in the US have access to no public transit whatsoever - and as for sharing a car... that’s what they’re likely doing with their partner. One person uses it to go to work while the other is at home, probably caring for their children.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#265

Post by TylerE » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

aspaviento wrote: post #257

missosoup wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people do not and would not drive while so tired that they knew they were likely to fall asleep while doing so For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You guys seriously seem to be completely disconnected from what reality looks like for 80%+ of the population. > In reality, only a tiny proportion of pe…

> For most people, the other option is to stop driving to work and then be jobless and eventually homeless, make their kids go hungry, or go bankrupt. You say that as if there weren't any other options. You have public transport and you can share a car (and expenses) with someone who has your same destination. > For most people, it's a life and family destroying sentence. Dying in a car accident is literally a death…

> You have public transpor

No you don't. In 95% of the US "Public transit" is maybe a bus that stops a mile away once every 2 hours. If that.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#266

Post by spike021 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:02 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #263

scarmig wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ungenerous reading of the comment. They would agree that falling asleep at the wheel is unsafe. We've designed a system, however, that is set up such that it's bound to happen sometimes. Not everyone can call in to work and tell their boss "sorry, I slept badly last night, I'm not coming in" or order a $60 Uber to get somewhere on a whim. Moralizing at people is just virtue signaling.

In one paragraph you've conveyed my point better than I could across multiple comments. This is the heart of what I was getting at. This, and the fact that the HN demographic, mostly being techies, seem to be a bit disconnected from what real life looks like to 80%+ of the population of the world. A few instances per year of not coming in to work due to poor sleep or having to order Uber wouldn't just inconvenicence…

That's quite a reach and a bad take.

I've only been in the full-time tech industry for about 3.5 years.

Before then I was working hourly jobs to make ends meet, including working half time or more while studying full-time in college, working during high school, etc. This so I could pay rent and tuition with minimal, if any, aid.

I couldn't even afford a car until after graduating from university.

I was walking or taking public transportation everywhere prior to finally getting a car.

I won't disagree that people in SV can be snobby but let's not jump to conclusions here.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#267

Post by mrich » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:03 PM UTC

ogre_codes wrote: post #56

One of the reasons I would love to have autopilot is because I have a history of dozing off at the wheel. Never so much where I've had an accident, but bad enough where I've scared myself badly. I don't want autopilot so I can actually sleep at the wheel, I want it in case I do . I'd vastly prefer if the car noticed I was inattentive that it notified me. My feeling is for long drives this would be a safety feature, b…

In Germany, there are quite a few cars with "Emergency Assist" technology. There are different variants of it, in my VW Touran it works like this: When the car is in ACC/lane assist mode (similar to Autopilot), it will detect when there is no steering wheel input for a while. First it beeps, then it will brake a few times to "wake you up". Still no input? Then it will brake to a complete stop and turn on the warning lights. In more recent incarnations the car will park at the side of the road.

It is great for medical emergencies (stroke/seizure) but of course you should not rely on it and drive without paying attention to the road.

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#268

Post by cycrutchfield » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:05 PM UTC

gpvos wrote: post #116

dkonofalski wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They legally can't change that unless the law changes.

I value technical impossibility much higher than legal prohibition.

Then don't buy it?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#269

Post by mleonhard » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #156

GordonS wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - DRIVER_SHAVING > - DRIVER_ADJUSTING_MAKEUP > - DRIVER_APPLYING_LIPSTICK I've actually seen drivers doing all 3 of these. The shaving (with an electric razor, obviously) I only saw once, but I frequently see women applying makeup and lipstick.

I have seen drivers in huge cargo trucks read the newspaper on the autobahn (the newspaper strategically positioned over the steering wheel, of course), or watch TV. Scary shit. One guy was very interested in his porn mag, one hand holding the mag the other hand "occupied" too, so he somehow steered with his knees. One day I drove with a fellow student to some university event, and he suddenly at a red light took out…

Would you immediately report such drivers to the police?

Re: Tesla hacker reveals what driver-facing camera is looking for

#270

Post by scarmig » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

missosoup wrote: post #263

scarmig wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ungenerous reading of the comment. They would agree that falling asleep at the wheel is unsafe. We've designed a system, however, that is set up such that it's bound to happen sometimes. Not everyone can call in to work and tell their boss "sorry, I slept badly last night, I'm not coming in" or order a $60 Uber to get somewhere on a whim. Moralizing at people is just virtue signaling.

In one paragraph you've conveyed my point better than I could across multiple comments. This is the heart of what I was getting at. This, and the fact that the HN demographic, mostly being techies, seem to be a bit disconnected from what real life looks like to 80%+ of the population of the world. A few instances per year of not coming in to work due to poor sleep or having to order Uber wouldn't just inconvenicence…

In an earlier life, I worked in the trucking industry. If you refused to drive anytime you were fatigued, you would not be successful in the industry (one reason I am very glad to not be doing that anymore; it's also one of the most dangerous occupations out there, partly for that reason). I think that lots of the people here have never worked a non-privileged job in their lives.