Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#331

Post by JshWright » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:02 PM UTC

romanoderoma wrote: post #324

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

> Ferrari got caught doing something illegal so their engine has been nerfed. just a clarification, Ferrari has not been caught doing something illegal, they signed an agreement on how to handle the engine in exchange of some kind of assurance by FIA that won't happen again. The story says someone inside Ferrari told FIA that the Ferrari engine might not be 100% legal, FIA started an illegal investigation that also i…

> See Racing Point breaking system affair. It's illegal for sure, but no fine has been issued because they need racing point to be there and fill up the grid.

You mean aside from the €400k fine...? (along with the deduction of 15 points in the constructor's championship)

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#332

Post by koffiezet » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

neor wrote: post #213

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

I tend to agree with you. The current V6 Turbo engines with advanced Energy Recovery Systems were introduced with two major ideas in mind; 1. It would make Formula 1 engines relevant for road cars. 2. It would attract new manufacturers to the sport. 1. Failed miserably; there is 0 road relevance for F1 engines. 2. Failed miserably; only Honda entered the sport and they are pulling the plug now. Juicy detail; they ext…

> and go for hydrogen fuel

There are almost fewer cars running on hydrogen on the road right now than there are F1 cars on the grid (only half joking), and while many mainstream manufacturers have made prototypes and concept cars even before they did anything pure electric, pretty much all of them have real full-electric products in their lineup, or at leat in the pipeline. There are some hydrogen pilot projects, sure, but I can't go to a dealer right now and order one. So going for hydrogen would be a really bad move, also because its energy density is inferior. The current ICE units in F1 are already at the upper-limit of possible efficiency, so replacing it with a fuel with a lower energy-density will be a step back in performance, with little or no future path to real improvements they don't have right now.

I'm an F1 fan, but I see that it is on a dead-end, one-way street. It'll take a while to reach the end, and as long as there's not a superior technology which can beat it on it's own grounds, it's not going away.

The "only" thing standing in the way of electric race-cars beating them is energy storage, which I expect to be improved at a break-neck speed in the coming years. FE has the advantage that this is the exact same problem affecting road-cars, which is why you see quite a few mainstream brands being attracted to it right now. But the energy density of oil-based fuels will be hard to beat, it will take a while before an FE car can beat an F1 car in every situation. But I'm excited for when this happens, since right now, FE fails to capture my interest for multiple reasons. There is no track-overview, all look pretty much the same to me, there are no iconic locations. Next year they'll finally be using the full Monaco circuit, which is a good start, and currently one of the very few viable F1 tracks for FE, but they have a long way to go.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#333

Post by randlet » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:12 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #286

suryabeep wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try MotoGP, it's got plenty of overtaking.

Second this. Not sure why people watch F1. MotoGP is infinitely better and in fact, it seems to just get better each passing year! The secret is that it's "90% rider" and "10% machine".

I really think "it's 90% rider and 10% machine" is a big exaggeration in MotoGP. Even Marquez is not going to win a race on a current generation Aprilia, and I'm not sure there is anyone other than Marquez who can win races on the current Honda.

edit: regardless, Dorna has done a great job making MotoGP competitive and MotoGP has to be at or very near the top of the list for the best racing on the planet.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#334

Post by koffiezet » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:18 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #286

suryabeep wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try MotoGP, it's got plenty of overtaking.

Second this. Not sure why people watch F1. MotoGP is infinitely better and in fact, it seems to just get better each passing year! The secret is that it's "90% rider" and "10% machine".

Ehm machine is still quite important... I haven't followed MotoGP for a while, but I remember when Rossi switched to Ducati...

That said, I always enjoyed watching MotoGP... Maybe should start following it again :P

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#335

Post by romanoderoma » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:19 PM UTC

JshWright wrote: post #331

romanoderoma wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ferrari got caught doing something illegal so their engine has been nerfed. just a clarification, Ferrari has not been caught doing something illegal, they signed an agreement on how to handle the engine in exchange of some kind of assurance by FIA that won't happen again. The story says someone inside Ferrari told FIA that the Ferrari engine might not be 100% legal, FIA started an illegal investigation that also i…

> See Racing Point breaking system affair. It's illegal for sure, but no fine has been issued because they need racing point to be there and fill up the grid. You mean aside from the €400k fine...? (along with the deduction of 15 points in the constructor's championship)

I mean two things

- Mercedes is the real offender here. They knew very well that the brake ducts of RP were illegal, but said nothing.

- it's peanuts, and only because Ferrari kept appealing against legality of RP brake ducts, the only team left taking actions after even Renault, who made the original protest, dropped it. Coincidentally after dropping the protest Renault have started flying

I used the word "fine" but I should have used penalty, RP should not be allowed on tracks for using illegal parts.

Ferrari is not allowed to run with their original engine - even though officially nothing wrong has been found - and it's probably the only "clean" (as not illegal) engine this year.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#336

Post by hvidgaard » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:23 PM UTC

oarsinsync wrote: post #311

hvidgaard wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engines is the least of concerns. Mercedes win, not because they also produce the engine, but because they pour nearly half a billion euros into the car, with engines being a vanishingly small amount of that. They have a car with superior aerodynamics and mechanical grip. Making the engine standardized will not change that.

> Mercedes win, not because they also produce the engine, but because they pour nearly half a billion euros into the car It takes more than just throwing money at the problem to win. Otherwise, Red Bull (paying for two teams in full) and Ferrari would be doing a lot better right now.

Mercedes, excluding the engine development, outspend both of those teams. All three outspend the rest of the field by quite some margin.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#337

Post by hvidgaard » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:27 PM UTC

Someone wrote: post #294

hvidgaard wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a safety point of view, the tuned mass damper was a nightmare. A small heavy object that must move freely in the car is hard to secure if a crash happens, and they do happen at very high speeds every single year. It's the same story with the skirts - they make the cars produce very efficient downforce, except when they don't work for whatever reason and the car continues in the state of motion is was in, almost…

Into a barrier is the good outcome for loss of downforce. The car may make a backward somersault and fly over a barrier or land on top of another car.

Loss of downforce does not necessarily mean it goes tumbling. Skits basically means it's easier to create the suction that provide the downforce. Loss of that means it lacks the grip it would otherwise have, not that air gets under the car in a way that send it flying. The front wing and rear wing would still produce some downforce that keeps with the wheels on the ground.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#338

Post by davewritescode » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:27 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #325

davewritescode wrote: post #321

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport. Edit: I…

> After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Honda has been a supplier for engines in Indycar for decades

You're correct, but as far as I knew they hadn't committed to building a new engine for the hybrid rules coming in 2023. As of yesterday, they had committed long term.

Thanks for pointing it out, I'm not an indycar fan and I just saw the announcement that they were building a new hybrid. The point still stands, Honda isn't leaving F1 to focus on green tech, it's leaving because they're burning money and not seeing any return.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#339

Post by animal_spirits » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:29 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #325

davewritescode wrote: post #321

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport. Edit: I…

> After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Honda has been a supplier for engines in Indycar for decades

Yes, Honda is not trying to hide that they are switching resources from F1 to Indycar behind some greenwashing. They've been in Indy for a while now and I genuinely believe that they want to pull resources for carbon free tech

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#340

Post by jacobr1 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 1:32 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #325

davewritescode wrote: post #321

I just want to point out that this headline is wrong and out of date already. After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Technically, it's a different division of Honda (Honda USA) but this greenwashing of why they left F1 leaves a bad taste in my mouth. They're leaving because they're not successful and they're dumping a bunch of money in the sport. Edit: I…

> After pulling out of F1, Honda has announced that they're going to be an engine supplier for Indycar. Honda has been a supplier for engines in Indycar for decades

Right, but it limits the virtue signaling of their stated reason for leaving F1. If leaving F1 was just about the environment, then they should limit their involvement with all ICE focused organizations.

That said, Honda is a big conglomerate and it looks like this was the decision of one division and not the whole parent company. So I don't think they actually were being disingenuous in practice.