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Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

arstechnica.com

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Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#211

Post by neor »

manojlds wrote: post #177
nradov wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ferrari is currently #6 out of 10 teams so whatever they're spending it's not working. https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2020/team.html

For those who are not following - Ferrari "cheated" last year with their engine and have a secret "agreement" with FIA to cut out thr cheat which also meant apparently rebuilding a lot of the PU. They should be back on pace in 2022.

Part of the agreement is that Ferrari engineers are helping the FIA to police the other engines.

The engineers on the payroll at the FIA don't have the time/resources/knowledge to judge the legality of these insanely complex powertrains.

All manufacturers were forced earlier this year to provide detailed info about their Energy Recovery Systems, rumors are that Ferrari suspects the Mercedes ERS to make use of loopholes so Ferrari lends their engineers to the FIA to research the data provided on all engines.

Close some of those loopholes with a Technical Directive (Basically a clarification of the rules, which takes immediate effect) and you can slow down your opponents with immediately.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#212

Post by saberdancer »

exabrial wrote: post #45

I highly highly highly doubt this is the explanation is true. F1 is way over regulated with ridiculous rules, crushing innovation and free thinking. Honda knows just as well as everyone else that the technology developed there has trickled down into consumer ICE engines and made them superior in terms of carbon expenditure. Hell of a marketing spin.

It's very doubtful. They are staying involved with IndyCar which is not hybrid at the moment.

The real reason for them pulling out is probably the economic downturn and expected losses Honda will generate. Getting out of a expensive project like F1 makes sense although I am struggling to understand why they can't continue on, engines will be almost "frozen" in the next few years.

One explanation I have is that Honda was funding Red Bull, just like they were paying McLaren to use their engines. Giving away money to Red Bull just so that you can spend more money to produce the engines doesn't make sense commercially. To be clear, I am speculating about this as I do not know the details of Honda-Red Bull contract.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#213

Post by neor »

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

I tend to agree with you.

The current V6 Turbo engines with advanced Energy Recovery Systems were introduced with two major ideas in mind; 1. It would make Formula 1 engines relevant for road cars. 2. It would attract new manufacturers to the sport.

1. Failed miserably; there is 0 road relevance for F1 engines. 2. Failed miserably; only Honda entered the sport and they are pulling the plug now. Juicy detail; they extended their IndyCar contract and IndyCar is switching to V6 Turbo Hybrid engines in a few years.... So the "carbon free tech" reason they gave to pull out of F1 isn't entirely true.

What F1 should do is one of two things;

1. Find a way to become road relevant again. I'd say the only way to do this is to skip Electric as Formula E is doing this already and go for hydrogen fuel.

2. Screw road relevance, and focus on entertainment. This means abandoning the insanely complex/expensive engines and go for simple, powerful, and most of all cheap engines.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#214

Post by jfoucher »

neor wrote: post #207
NoOneNew wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video highlights some of what you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk Little out of the box innovations that are pretty cool and then banned. The mass dampener in the video is really what gets to me. FIA just loves to ban random things. Like, I get some forced regulations according to safety. The Halos, for example, I get that they must be to a specific standard. But a simple mechanical…

The FIA has made a rule now that any new/innovative finding on a car gets banned the next season. So if a team develops something, they can run it for one year after which it's banned from the sport. All of this is to cut cost for the smaller teams; take the DAS system of Mercedes (Double Axis Steering). If the FIA doesn't ban it all teams need to be running it next year, or they fall behind. However its a complex sy…

So if you don't have massive amounts of engineers and test equipment to invent / develop new things that give you a performance boost for one year then you don't have a chance of winning. Doesn't seem like a very clever way to cut costs to me... Well, maybe it does cut costs, but it also prevents any small team from ever winning.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#215

Post by elcomet »

DC-3 wrote: post #188
W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#216

Post by snemvalts »

nradov wrote: post #159
W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

I am a casual motorsports fan. F1 and Nascar have become boring with cookie-cutter cars. Would love to see a new racing series that allowed real innovation again. Just impose a team budget cap and some basic rules for track safety (no active aerodynamics, fuel load limits, etc). Otherwise do whatever you like whether it's a 16 cylinder engine or all-wheel drive or a giant wing or something totally nuts.

"real innovation" - to you it's visual changes? there's massive amounts of developments in F1, but you don't see it.

sounds like you're looking for some unregulated junkyard challenge, where everybody shows up with something they welded together in their garage.

and when there are no regulations, somebody shows up with astronomical amounts of money, they start winning every time, the sport becomes boring, people stop losing interest, sponsors pull out, sport dies down.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#217

Post by Jnr »

names_are_hard wrote: post #193
galaxyLogic wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live often times I hear from the street below a group young men riding motorcycles down the street as a group. A bit of mad Max in it. They make a lot of sound and some drivers make their bikes ride in a upright position with only the read wheel on the road. I can see they're having lots of fun, partly because of the loud roaring sound their engines make. They make their presence known. It makes me wonder wha…

At first I thought this post was going to be someone complaining about hooligans on motorcycles doing wheelies in their otherwise quiet neighborhood, wishing they'd just go away. Thanks for not going there, I appreciate it. I'm someone who enjoys riding a motorcycle fast (on a racetrack, wearing leathers, because I don't want to die and because I like tickets). I can tell you that I very much wish my bike was quieter…

I think that the noise is one of the better safety features of motorcycles. Without the noise you would be invisible and I think even more accidents would happen.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#218

Post by perfunctory »

> By my count, this is the fifth time that the Japanese automaker has quit F1

Makes you wonder how serious one should take this announcement.

> our current goal of "electrifying two-thirds of our global automobile unit sales in 2030"

Sounds ambitious, but we know by now that nobody - no company, no government - has ever met any of their climate pledges.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#219

Post by anticensor »

neor wrote: post #207
NoOneNew wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video highlights some of what you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk Little out of the box innovations that are pretty cool and then banned. The mass dampener in the video is really what gets to me. FIA just loves to ban random things. Like, I get some forced regulations according to safety. The Halos, for example, I get that they must be to a specific standard. But a simple mechanical…

The FIA has made a rule now that any new/innovative finding on a car gets banned the next season. So if a team develops something, they can run it for one year after which it's banned from the sport. All of this is to cut cost for the smaller teams; take the DAS system of Mercedes (Double Axis Steering). If the FIA doesn't ban it all teams need to be running it next year, or they fall behind. However its a complex sy…

> The FIA has made a rule now that any new/innovative finding on a car gets banned the next season.

Or in some rare cases, it becomes compulsory instead...

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#220

Post by pangoraw »

elcomet wrote: post #215
DC-3 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

I think this is mostly to give teams with smaller budgets a fighting chance against teams like say Mercedes who have an astronomical budget and could finance R&D all year long.
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