Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#201

Post by ksec » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:24 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #196

jocker12 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but it has the opposite effect." - so you think the reduction of engine/power units usage from 2 to 3 per race to 3 per season had an opposite cost effect? Or limitation of tire sets that could be used over a race weekend had an opposite cost effect? Or do you want to remove the regulations and have only 4 or 6 cars (Mercedes, Ferrari and possible McLaren) racing for 21 races instead of 20 to 22 cars for the same am…

In a way, yes. Racing slicks are cheap in comparison to the kind of budgets we’re talking about here - and that cost per unit would go down if they were making and using more. Engineering out the last infinitesimal bit of rain out of something is expensive. F1 was much more interesting when things like the Tyrell P34 were allowed to exist

>F1 was much more interesting

Yes, and when they were pushing for absolute speed. With a similar 1.6L engine being used in 2022, I could only hope there are areas left for more innovation in the Engine.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#202

Post by DC-3 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:28 AM UTC

erichocean wrote: post #199

DC-3 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

> Such things are illegal now because if they were not the sport would be dead within five years. It's already dead. Might as well have the testing.

Grand Prix racing is not dead. Don't hyperbolise.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#203

Post by domlebo70 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:32 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #157

serf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F1 technology is a lot more than just power-trains, I wish people would understand that better. Fuel chemistry, aerodynamics, functional simulation, driver ergonomics, safety dynamics, tire chemistry, metallurgy, analytics, data recording, composites, suspension, real-time telemetry and communication, digital systems management.. the list goes on forever. If the device/technique/procedure wasn't invented by F1, it wa…

Really the aero and suspension is more impressive than the engine. You could stick a commodity pushrod V8 in there and make 1000hp easy with a bolt on turbo and run the same laptimes. Nothing else on earth is close to the aero.

Is that really true though, when you factor in weight? A 1000hp LS based turbo engine for 150kg?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#204

Post by hvidgaard » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:35 AM UTC

lmm wrote: post #102

zebrafish wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Formula E already exists. As a PR play, other power unit manufacturers may follow Honda. Volkswagen put a lot of pressure on them with their announcement last year. However, I don’t think (and hope) that ICE racing will go anywhere. The engineering challenges and reliability challenges are part of racing that EVs remove from the equation. I don’t understand why EVs can’t have their place as personal and commercial ve…

> I don’t understand why EVs can’t have their place as personal and commercial vehicles and racing can keep ICEs in competition vehicles. I'm sure ICE racing will continue in one form or another, but Formula 1 is enormously expensive; manufacturers justify it in terms of the prestige it brings them and the R&D work that can trickle-down into road cars. If the engine technology is completely different then both of tho…

The teams use less than $50 million on engines yearly. The remainder of the budget is spend on the cars chassis, aero, suspension ect. That cost would not go away with a switch to an electric power train.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#205

Post by TylerE » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

domlebo70 wrote: post #203

TylerE wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really the aero and suspension is more impressive than the engine. You could stick a commodity pushrod V8 in there and make 1000hp easy with a bolt on turbo and run the same laptimes. Nothing else on earth is close to the aero.

Is that really true though, when you factor in weight? A 1000hp LS based turbo engine for 150kg?

A bit more than that, but LS motors are light for their power. Full street dress is about 210kg. I’m sure you could shed quite a bit of that right a way (you don’t need things like power steering or an alternator.)

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#206

Post by dan1234 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:47 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #105

Thaxll wrote: post #9

Haha Red Bull, back to Renault.

I actually think we'll see a bit of shuffling and RedBull will end up with either an official Mercedes engine (i.e. Mercs will drop Will-- sorry, one customer, to replace them with RBR) or a funky rebranded not-officially-X-but-basically-the-same engine. Horner and Marko seem to have burnt "one bridge too far" with Renault, Renault themselves suggested that they would take RedBull as customer only as a last resort an…

Why would Mercedes offer Red Bull (their main competitor) engines?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#207

Post by neor » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:50 AM UTC

NoOneNew wrote: post #128

W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

This video highlights some of what you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk Little out of the box innovations that are pretty cool and then banned. The mass dampener in the video is really what gets to me. FIA just loves to ban random things. Like, I get some forced regulations according to safety. The Halos, for example, I get that they must be to a specific standard. But a simple mechanical…

The FIA has made a rule now that any new/innovative finding on a car gets banned the next season.

So if a team develops something, they can run it for one year after which it's banned from the sport.

All of this is to cut cost for the smaller teams; take the DAS system of Mercedes (Double Axis Steering). If the FIA doesn't ban it all teams need to be running it next year, or they fall behind. However its a complex system and the small teams (Haas, Williams, Alfa Romeo for example) might not have the money to research and build it.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#208

Post by saberdancer » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:50 AM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #11

F-1 has always baffled me as a sport. Not that it's inherently bad or boring, just that there are so many motor sports that make it look that way. Same with NASCAR. I don't understand how an audience for those exists when, for example, rally races exist.

Almost all other motorsport series are either spec series or use Balance of Performance. In effect, they are "gamed" to make the cars equal to ensure closer competition.

F1 is more of an engineering competition than a driver competition, but both are extremely important. There are very few similar motorsport series. Le Mans used to be that way (and died a slow death due to rising costs), Dakar is like that, rally? I believe is like that, but really don't know any others.

I am an F1 fan and I really like the engineering aspect of it.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#209

Post by toyg » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:54 AM UTC

dan1234 wrote: post #206

toyg wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think we'll see a bit of shuffling and RedBull will end up with either an official Mercedes engine (i.e. Mercs will drop Will-- sorry, one customer, to replace them with RBR) or a funky rebranded not-officially-X-but-basically-the-same engine. Horner and Marko seem to have burnt "one bridge too far" with Renault, Renault themselves suggested that they would take RedBull as customer only as a last resort an…

Why would Mercedes offer Red Bull (their main competitor) engines?

Because money is money, control over your competitors’ roadmap is nice, and customers often don’t even get the latest version of an engine.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#210

Post by saberdancer » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:56 AM UTC

mdoms wrote: post #150

I have a theory that F1 is motorsport for people with no interest in motorsport. You can't possibly watch it for the racing, in a series where 90 minute races routinely end with over 25 seconds between each podium car. Where the fanbase fanatically opposes things like simplified powertrains, simplified aero and control parts, which would all result in far better, closer racing but would (in their minds) erode the pre…

There are plenty of series that do what you ask for yet there are few series that do what F1 does. Fanbase isn't inherently against simplified powertrains (there are many calling for NA engines for example V10s) but they are against spec engines or majority of parts.

F1 was always an engineering competition. You can't compare it with GT racing where they BoP all the cars to drive around relatively the same.

I disagree with your opinion. F1 racing can be very exciting and interesting, but it is similar to soccer/football, you get periods of boredom mixed with moments of sheer brilliance. Sometimes you get a great race with many moments of sheer brilliance and sometimes it ends with no goals on either side. Just like in soccer, you could "spice things up" by mixing up the players on the teams and making the teams equal, but that is not really the idea behind the sport.

F1 is trying to stay relevant, these hybrid engines are here because of that, but the problem is that costs escalated due to the complexity involved. F1 should focus on reducing complexity while allowing innovation, especially in hybrid/EV fields.