Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#291

Post by swarnie_ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:06 AM UTC

manojlds wrote: post #175

ip26 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all in the name of reducing expenses of course, but it has the opposite effect. I always thought it was more like, Ferrari will always spend gobs of money and a small player can only spend a tenth as much- the amount of money spent will not change- but how can we narrow the gap between the high budget & low budget teams, such that a really awesome low budget team has a chance of catching a high budget team na…

Budget cap kicks in next year heading into new regs for 2022. Ferrari and Merc spend $500m approx. Budget cap is $175m with exceptions like driver salary, top leaders salary, PU.

And this has resulted in teams spending silly money this year and last to "beat" the new caps.

New wind tunnels, new factories, expensive software projects. All ploughed ahead this year so they don't have to go on the books after 2022.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#292

Post by bosie » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:20 AM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #230

elcomet wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

F1 teams have severely unbalanced finances. There's a small number of teams that keep winning and have most of the fans. Having the fastest car this year gives you a leg up next year, having the fastest car attracts the fastest drivers, and having the most fans gives you negotiating leverage over the governing body. For example, Ferrari have so many fans and so much negotiating leverage they get given $100 million ev…

Isn't F1's unbalanced finances nothing compared to other sports though? i.e. tennis. federer has completely different opportunities compared to a top 75 player.

did it kill the tennis sport and/or is it killing the sport? you could argue that way given that it is always the same folks winning the big tournaments

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#293

Post by lm28469 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:33 AM UTC

Jnr wrote: post #217

names_are_hard wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At first I thought this post was going to be someone complaining about hooligans on motorcycles doing wheelies in their otherwise quiet neighborhood, wishing they'd just go away. Thanks for not going there, I appreciate it. I'm someone who enjoys riding a motorcycle fast (on a racetrack, wearing leathers, because I don't want to die and because I like tickets). I can tell you that I very much wish my bike was quieter…

I think that the noise is one of the better safety features of motorcycles. Without the noise you would be invisible and I think even more accidents would happen.

You can only hear them at slow speed. Anything above 50kph and the air noise make it impossible to hear. Motorcycles are invisible because a lot people don't take driving seriously and don't check their mirrors/blind spots.

The only time I got into an accident was at a red light. I was stopped in front of a car, which was also stopped. The light went green and the car rear ended me, this was mid day, 100% visibility, my bike was bright red, you can't fix stupid.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#294

Post by Someone » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:44 AM UTC

hvidgaard wrote: post #190

NoOneNew wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This video highlights some of what you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk Little out of the box innovations that are pretty cool and then banned. The mass dampener in the video is really what gets to me. FIA just loves to ban random things. Like, I get some forced regulations according to safety. The Halos, for example, I get that they must be to a specific standard. But a simple mechanical…

From a safety point of view, the tuned mass damper was a nightmare. A small heavy object that must move freely in the car is hard to secure if a crash happens, and they do happen at very high speeds every single year. It's the same story with the skirts - they make the cars produce very efficient downforce, except when they don't work for whatever reason and the car continues in the state of motion is was in, almost…

Into a barrier is the good outcome for loss of downforce. The car may make a backward somersault and fly over a barrier or land on top of another car.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#295

Post by rogy » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:45 AM UTC

bosie wrote: post #292

michaelt wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F1 teams have severely unbalanced finances. There's a small number of teams that keep winning and have most of the fans. Having the fastest car this year gives you a leg up next year, having the fastest car attracts the fastest drivers, and having the most fans gives you negotiating leverage over the governing body. For example, Ferrari have so many fans and so much negotiating leverage they get given $100 million ev…

Isn't F1's unbalanced finances nothing compared to other sports though? i.e. tennis. federer has completely different opportunities compared to a top 75 player. did it kill the tennis sport and/or is it killing the sport? you could argue that way given that it is always the same folks winning the big tournaments

But Tennis isn't dictated on who has the most billions to invest in new technologies, its pretty limited to the amount of money you can spend on coaching.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#296

Post by me_me_me » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:48 AM UTC

TLightful wrote: post #285

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

>>F1 is almost purely play-to-win, to use a modern coinage. Maybe you meant "pay-to-win". I absolutely do not discount driver skill. It's still there. But it's primarily a money game.

> I absolutely do not discount driver skill.

That's the thing I always wondered. How much skill vs car there is in modern F1. ATM I'm on the side of car being the biggest factor (subpar F1 driver will win in the best car).

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#297

Post by PedroBatista » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:57 AM UTC

what_ever wrote: post #281

neor wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to agree with you. The current V6 Turbo engines with advanced Energy Recovery Systems were introduced with two major ideas in mind; 1. It would make Formula 1 engines relevant for road cars. 2. It would attract new manufacturers to the sport. 1. Failed miserably; there is 0 road relevance for F1 engines. 2. Failed miserably; only Honda entered the sport and they are pulling the plug now. Juicy detail; they ext…

> 1. Failed miserably; there is 0 road relevance for F1 engines. 2. Failed miserably; only Honda entered the sport and they are pulling the plug now. Juicy detail; they extended their IndyCar contract and IndyCar is switching to V6 Turbo Hybrid engines in a few years.... So the "carbon free tech" reason they gave to pull out of F1 isn't entirely true. Could be because Honda already has a V6 Turbo Hybrid but don't wan…

Also yes. Their strategy to re-enter F1 was the classic playbook, start with an engine At the beginning of a new rules era, get some top customers to gather info and then create a works team eventually.

Well, that didn’t play out the way they hoped so either they commit to F1 spending billions ( I wouldn’t ) or get out.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#298

Post by PedroBatista » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 11:03 AM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #260

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

> In a few years battery electric vehicles will get to the performance levels of current F1 hybrids, but by that time the mantle of the pinnacle of auto-racing will have been taken by FormulaE I strongly doubt that Formula E will be a drop-in replacement for Formula 1. It's a completely different (and unfortunately so far very boring) replacement for Formula 1. If anything my guess is that once they figured out the b…

These days the only thing more boring than formula 1 is formula e. It’s the political correct one, we all know what everyone is thinking but nobody tell :)

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#299

Post by PedroBatista » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 11:09 AM UTC

snyp wrote: post #151

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

Honda has left F1 5 times in the past. This is nothing new. They just seem to have different reasons every time!

This time they were overconfident and believed too much in their “God given” superiority.

In the end their type of arrogance didn’t play well with F1 arrogance.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#300

Post by NLMichel » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 11:10 AM UTC

me_me_me wrote: post #296

TLightful wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>F1 is almost purely play-to-win, to use a modern coinage. Maybe you meant "pay-to-win". I absolutely do not discount driver skill. It's still there. But it's primarily a money game.

> I absolutely do not discount driver skill. That's the thing I always wondered. How much skill vs car there is in modern F1. ATM I'm on the side of car being the biggest factor (subpar F1 driver will win in the best car).

> subpar F1 driver will win in the best car

I agree, Bottas is a living example. But I think any of the current drivers on the F1 grid will start to win races in the Mercedes car. Beating Hamilton is another thing however.