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Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

arstechnica.com

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Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#251

Post by jjav »

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

The F1 crisis today is that F1 used to be three things rolled into one.

1. The sport. Fans, parties, passion, excitement for race results.

2. Advertising showcase of engineering prowess for companies selling cars or car-related parts.

3. A testing ground for future production car technology, send your best engineers to learn under the pressure of F1.

With commoditized electric cars taking over the road car market, this no longer works because the interests have diverged. By trying to continue to do all three, F1 is just imploding.

Personally I wish F1 would focus on #1 and let Formula E be the proving ground for street car tech.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#252

Post by Milner08 »

mcv wrote: post #221
DC-3 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grand Prix racing is not dead. Don't hyperbolise.

Well then, how would it be dead in 5 years? That sounds every bit as hyperbolic.

Because only a small set of teams would be able to afford the testing, and you'd end up with a tiny starting grid with only a few cars. It'd be crap.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#253

Post by friendlybus »

notnap wrote: post #233
Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

Please go and check this Ferrari season. You are in for a s🅱️in

A spinotto, a sbinnata even. This is romain grosjean to gunther steiner. I think I've lost control.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#254

Post by pmontra »

DC-3 wrote: post #188
W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

> This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team.

Honda had a works team and pulled out at the end of 2008. They sold the team to Brawn which won the 2009 title with a low budget by exploiting a loophole in the rules. The other teams couldn't catch up soon enough. Brawn had no money left and sold to Mercedes. Red Bull won the next four titles and Mercedes all the other titles up to now.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#255

Post by travisjungroth »

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227
elcomet wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

Seems harder to regulate spending in racing than other sports. In baseball, it’s pretty much all in athlete salaries. I bet most (if not all) teams have a single player that makes more than the whole coaching, analytics and scouting staff put together. And all these salaries are public.

But in racing, so much spending is “off the field”. Seems tough to audit and easy to cheat.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#256

Post by wh1t3n01s3 »

DC-3 wrote: post #188
W-Stool wrote: post #84

Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector time…

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

And, do not forget, a lot of people died during racetrack tests due to lack of man assistance. Elio De Angelis and Michele Arboreto for example, but I’m sure there are a lot more.... (both of them would be alive if there was someone to take their bodies from the vehicles in time)

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#257

Post by onion2k »

nindalf wrote: post #234
perfunctory wrote: post #218

> By my count, this is the fifth time that the Japanese automaker has quit F1 Makes you wonder how serious one should take this announcement. > our current goal of "electrifying two-thirds of our global automobile unit sales in 2030" Sounds ambitious, but we know by now that nobody - no company, no government - has ever met any of their climate pledges.

They’re not electrifying their fleet by 2030 because they want to make the world a better place through technology. They’re doing it because in 2035 they lose access to the world’s 4th largest economy - California. No manufacturer can take that kind of hit. All manufacturers see the writing on the wall - they need to invest in EVs or perish. In 10 years if it looks like a majority of manufacturers are successfully ma…

No manufacturer can take that kind of hit.

California has a huge economy but that doesn't translate directly to the number of cars sold. Sales of cars is proportionate to population size more than economy size in wealthy Western countries.

Honda will obviously have many EVs on the market for Californians (and other Americans, and Europeans, and Asians, and every other market that's banning petrol and diesel cars) to buy, but they're also going to continue to make and sell fossil fuel powered cars for long time in countries that don't have the electrical infrastructure to support electrification of civilian vehicles.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#258

Post by toyg »

nindalf wrote: post #234
perfunctory wrote: post #218

> By my count, this is the fifth time that the Japanese automaker has quit F1 Makes you wonder how serious one should take this announcement. > our current goal of "electrifying two-thirds of our global automobile unit sales in 2030" Sounds ambitious, but we know by now that nobody - no company, no government - has ever met any of their climate pledges.

They’re not electrifying their fleet by 2030 because they want to make the world a better place through technology. They’re doing it because in 2035 they lose access to the world’s 4th largest economy - California. No manufacturer can take that kind of hit. All manufacturers see the writing on the wall - they need to invest in EVs or perish. In 10 years if it looks like a majority of manufacturers are successfully ma…

I believe Germany is also supposed to switch in 2035, and the UK committed to 2040 but are looking into the possibility of moving it forward to '35. Nordic countries will probably do it before the end of this decade too. It's finally happening, we probably have the emission scandal to thank for it.

Not that this has any real link with the current announcement, it's a fig leaf over a classic Japanese move: in bad times, cut all non-essential items related to foreign markets, and regroup at home. F1 is largely an expensive promotional activity targeted at Europe.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#259

Post by mrkwse »

x87678r wrote: post #16

F1 isn't what it used to be last century. Races were nail biting epic contests, cars visibly improved every season, drivers were international celebrities dicing with real life ending risk, and passionate fans filled the stadiums. Modern races are just a procession of the same few people each weekend in global rich social events.

The races may be more or less interesting depending on preference, but everything else you've written here is false.

Cars still visibly improve each season, as demonstrated by the fact track records continue to fall each year.

Drivers are still international celebrities, and it's still a very dangerous sport (the fact there are far fewer deaths is a triumph, but it still occurs - Jules Bianchi died from a crash in 2014 and last year in F2 Anthoine Hubert succumb to a hideous incident). If your issue is that too few drivers are dying, then I really don't know what to say because mitigating that risk is a hugely positive thing.

Fans still fill the track grandstands (with the exception of some of the newest venues which may not sell out as easily). Just look at Monza 2019, with the sea of Tifosi under the podium. That passion is still there for a big number of fans, and as the sport is evolving (and more interesting young drivers come through) the fanbase is changing and growing more diverse.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#260

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

> In a few years battery electric vehicles will get to the performance levels of current F1 hybrids, but by that time the mantle of the pinnacle of auto-racing will have been taken by FormulaE

I strongly doubt that Formula E will be a drop-in replacement for Formula 1. It's a completely different (and unfortunately so far very boring) replacement for Formula 1. If anything my guess is that once they figured out the battery problem so they can go on bigger courses, they will introduce electric vehicles in the Formula 1 and start phasing out Formula E.

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