Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead • Hacker News Board

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#281

Post by what_ever » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:22 AM UTC

neor wrote: post #213

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

I tend to agree with you. The current V6 Turbo engines with advanced Energy Recovery Systems were introduced with two major ideas in mind; 1. It would make Formula 1 engines relevant for road cars. 2. It would attract new manufacturers to the sport. 1. Failed miserably; there is 0 road relevance for F1 engines. 2. Failed miserably; only Honda entered the sport and they are pulling the plug now. Juicy detail; they ext…

> 1. Failed miserably; there is 0 road relevance for F1 engines. 2. Failed miserably; only Honda entered the sport and they are pulling the plug now. Juicy detail; they extended their IndyCar contract and IndyCar is switching to V6 Turbo Hybrid engines in a few years.... So the "carbon free tech" reason they gave to pull out of F1 isn't entirely true.

Could be because Honda already has a V6 Turbo Hybrid but don't want to invest more money and resources to develop the next iteration of F1 engine?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#282

Post by magicalhippo » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:23 AM UTC

mhh__ wrote: post #77

TylerE wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you wouldn't. Cornering G is lateral. That doesn't pull blood from the brain. Not to say it's exactly FUN, but it won't cause you to black out.

And Braking G is along the longitudinal axis of the driver, they could red-out.

Breaking G is also more or less required for the drivers to break properly.

All breaking force has to be generated by the driver as per regulations, and the pedal requires over 100kg for maximum breaking, all while modulating the force precisely to extract the maximum without locking up[1].

So they rely on the breaking G forces making their legs heavy.

[1]: https://motorsport.tech/formula-1/formula-one-brakes-explain...

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#283

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:24 AM UTC

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

F1 is entertainment, a show. The key is to make it exciting and interesting to watch.

I think whether the engines are ICE, hybrid, or electric is not key. More technology can actually make it more boring and the number of restrictions has increased through the years because of that.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#284

Post by duncan_bayne » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:28 AM UTC

Some of the best motor racing I've personally seen was open class motorcycle racing. It was the 90s, so you had road legal GSXR1100s with the lights taped up, mixing it with 125cc Grand Prix bikes.

I don't get why you couldn't do similar with F1. Make it open slather: if it passes scrutineering, carries a driver, and is safe to be near on a track (no rockets) then go nuts.

Surely part of the expense in F1, and part of the fact that it is increasingly technologically irrelevant, is the incredibly tight restrictions on engineering and testing?

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#285

Post by TLightful » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:29 AM UTC

Gene_Parmesan wrote: post #227

elcomet wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why it would kill the sport, could you explain?

Expenses. Currently the top spenders are Ferrari and Mercedes. Both spend somewhere around $330 million (US) per year (and Mercedes has spent a total of $1.4 billion over the course of these current engine regs developing their car -- that's just development, not race expenses.). This is a beyond insane figure, but it's worth it to them for the marketing. Meanwhile smaller teams -- the teams you need to actually fill…

>>F1 is almost purely play-to-win, to use a modern coinage.

Maybe you meant "pay-to-win".

I absolutely do not discount driver skill. It's still there. But it's primarily a money game.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#286

Post by sgt » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:34 AM UTC

suryabeep wrote: post #126

alexb7c4 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any suggestions of racing series more interesting than F1? I tried to watch Blancpain, Super GT, IMSA, Le Mans - all of them seem to have almost non-existent level of overtaking (even worse than in F1 imho)

Try MotoGP, it's got plenty of overtaking.

Second this. Not sure why people watch F1. MotoGP is infinitely better and in fact, it seems to just get better each passing year! The secret is that it's "90% rider" and "10% machine".

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#287

Post by bborud » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:44 AM UTC

sumanthvepa wrote: post #78

F1's problem is that it is a technological marvel that is simultaneously obsolete. Like the XB-71 Valkyrie project of the US AirForce, the technology powering modern F1 hybrid power trains is just outstandingly brilliant. However, just like the XB-71 was made obsolete by the advent of ICBMs, the hybrid power train's future for road cars has been overtaken by the advent of Tesla and battery electric vehicles. The meta…

There is a paradox in that when F1 started becoming explicitly geared towards using more "clean technologies" F1 essentially stopped having any relevance to street cars. Or the environment.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#288

Post by gbrown_ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:47 AM UTC

pmontra wrote: post #254

DC-3 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they…

> This is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. Honda had a works team and pulled out at the end of 2008. They sold the team to Brawn which won the 2009 title with a low budget by exploiting a loophole in the rules. The other teams couldn't catch up soon enough. Brawn had no money left and sold to Mercedes. Red Bull won the next four titles and Mercedes…

> They sold the team to Brawn which won the 2009 title with a low budget by exploiting a loophole in the rules.

Williams and Toyota started with a double diffuser as well. Also to be clear Honda had planned for double diffuser on the 2009 car before being bought by Brawn.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#289

Post by dagw » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 9:58 AM UTC

oarsinsync wrote: post #277

Milner08 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because only a small set of teams would be able to afford the testing, and you'd end up with a tiny starting grid with only a few cars. It'd be crap.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_Grand_Prix... It's not been interesting for a while. There may be > 10 cars, but there's very few that actually make it to a win, and there's been only one that's mattered each year for almost a decade.

The question I guess is how much less exciting would the race be if it was only the 4 cars that might win racing compared to today where there are those 4 cars + 14 others.

Re: Honda quits F1, invests in carbon-free tech instead

#290

Post by nickik » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 10:04 AM UTC

Honda as an electric company has sucked. Fuel cells continue to be total nonsense and have no viability for the market, yet Honda is one of those companies still investing.

Honda barley produces an EV and in the US seems to want to use GM platform, not even have its own. Meaning that GM will capture the majority of the value.

At some point the competitiveness of ICE will be incredibly clear and Honda is one of those companies who is not even close to being ready. They are good candidate for consolidation in the future.