Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#241

Post by iainmerrick » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:26 AM UTC

theamk wrote: post #185

Jorge1o1 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wage paid to programmers is a function of supply and demand just like everything else in the market. Investment bankers and programmers earn more than your typical American because the supply of bankers and top-level programmers is much tighter. Goldman Sachs and KKR hire from Wharton or HBS, and Google hires grads from CMU or Stanford. Whether they should or shouldn’t restrict their hiring practices is another m…

Google is a pretty bad example, they are well known for not caring where did you study. As long as you pass their (hellish) interview, they will take you. And bootcamps are not going to help you with that.

they are well known for not caring where did you study

No, this is incorrect -- Google has a list of “favored” academic institutions. It’s not used to filter out candidates, so they’ll still hire people from other backgrounds, but studying at a top university is considered to be a positive signal.

(Possibly this has changed recently, but it was true through at least 2012 or so.)

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#242

Post by 0xfaded » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:31 AM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #238

0xfaded wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what's the notice period? 3-6 months may be enough to kill a pivoting company when otherwise IP and team could be packaged up and sold off. One of the things people seem complain about on HN is that founders of failed companies in SV seem to make off quite well. In fact I believe this mentality helped me take the leap with my startup. The only problem is that I moved to Europe to do it, and the prospects for fail…

When I was last made redundant, in the UK, the notice period was 1 month and there was no redundancy payment. They let me go just before 2 years of employment, when a redundancy payout would have started. I don't think there would have been a longer notice period after 2 years, just a payout. It was legitimate redundancy because they let go of a number of people at the same time. So it wasn't personally targeted, tho…

Wow, thanks for sharing. One month up until 2 years is surprisingly good for outside the US. Do you feel the decision to terminate you then may have been linked to your impending protections after two years?

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#243

Post by jlokier » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:36 AM UTC

garbagetime wrote: post #215

jlokier wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit. It's not just an amicable separation of bureaucracies. If you're in the UK (as I am), the kinds of headlines coming up regularly make it really clear the UK government is trying to not be part of Europe in all sorts of bizarre ways. For example the most recent big deal was the UK has formally decided to break international law by reneging on the UK-EU withdrawal treaty it signed up to less than a year ago. Th…

The European Union is a political and economic union. Europe is a continent. It seems strange to refer to wanting to leave the European Union as wanting to leave Europe. Of course, I'm sure those who support the European Union are generally also very much in favour of it being treated as synonymous with Europe. But it sounds like nothing short of absurd rhetoric to me.

"Europe" is how it's often described in the UK.

There's a long history of using "Europe" in news or political writing to refer to the continent (excluding the UK), and also to the various political and administrative entities such as the European Union, EEC, EC, ECHR, ECJ, etc. Also referring to "Europeans" as people in those countries.

Much as, say, "China" is use to refer to the political entity that is the Chinese government rather than the geopgraphy, and "America" is used to refer to the USA government, not the continent.

The way language is used, with "Europe" in the UK usually taken to mean "that landmass on the other side of the English Channel to the East of the UK, not us", might be a reason why a lot of people in the UK have such cognitive dissonance over it that most don't recognise they had "EU Citizenship", including some great citizenship rights, which they will now lose at the end of this year.

Because for many, "EU Citizen" conjures up images from other countries to the East, immigrants by definition it they are in the UK. Yet in reality all UK citizens have been EU citizens for decades.

Ireland is also in Europe and the EU yet people don't think of Ireland when thinking about "Europe", and sometimes not even when thinking of the EU, although the last few years of politics have raised the profile of the EU Irish border issues.

If you're thinking it's absurd rhetoric, fair enough, but you would be mistaken to think it's just language of those who support the EU, within the UK. It has a long history.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#244

Post by avereveard » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:37 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #239

avereveard wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Italy literally invented universities, gets comparable climate and unpaid non competes are not enforceable. no silicon valley equivalent in sight tho so I strongly suspect the whole thread so far it's projection and wishful thinking.

What about other labour laws? Isn't it hard to fire people in Italy, whereas CA has at-will? My friend whose father ran a well known cultural institution there also says organised crime is a problem, effectively an extra tax. Basically he was told he'd have to "hire" certain people, or else... On top of other issues there's the fact that once SV is established somewhere, it turns into a magnet for all the new startup…

yeah Italy got it's problems, but it's a easy counter-example of what parent posts proposed as a thesis: that the secret ingredient was non-competes, education and climate.

it is readily apparent that the success pillar from silicon valley were not these three.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#245

Post by luckylion » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:38 AM UTC

kamaal wrote: post #211

cycomanic wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it really was great weather, great colleagues, weak nocompetes why has Australia not managed to create the same culture. AFAIK nocompetes are pretty much unenforceable in Australia, they have better weather than california and lots of people like to live there, so what is missing? Honest question.

Its not just those three. Its also local demand, diversity, merit, culture and acceptance and many other things. Plus existing inertia matters too. It takes tons of effort to get the ball rolling. Im sure there are lots of other reasons too, any 1-1 comparison would be unfair given the differences in culture and overall direction of the societies.

> Its also local demand, diversity, merit, culture and acceptance and many other things. Plus existing inertia matters too. It takes tons of effort to get the ball rolling.

I think the last point is the most important one. It also took a lot of government/military/intelligence funding to get the ball rolling, and a time where the government/military/intelligence wanted to fund specifically that, something you cannot simply copy. The weather, local culture etc were available before, but SV didn't become a major player before all the stars aligned just right.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#246

Post by boc » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:38 AM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #232

boc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't mistake government-sponsored protectionism and corporate espionage for innovation. I don't think Europe can copy China's playbook without also banning all American tech from their economy.

I expect you will see barriers come up over time that make it more difficult for American tech companies in Europe. It makes no sense for the EU to outsource such a valuable part of the economy.

Again, protectionism is a dangerous road. If the EU blocked American tech companies, the US would retaliate in kind. While it's possible that Europe could eventually become self-sustaining if given a friendly environment to grow indigenous tech companies, losing access to every major OS overnight (as just a small example of the potential retaliation) would be a pretty devastating experience for Europe. You can't replace Microsoft, Apple, and Google overnight.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#247

Post by e_y_ » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:41 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #149

batmaniam wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should rid of the term 'poaching'. There's no such thing. We're not animals, we are free to accept a better offer it comes along. The CEO should have counter offered with something more substantial, but he couldn't so the engineers went to greener pastures.

When you're talking about individuals, sure. But when you're talking about a whole team, it's a little different. Original employer A went to a lot of expensive effort to find a very particular set of qualified engineers that could work together at the same time -- where the sum is much more than the parts. If employer B hires the team already put together perfectly qualified for a similar task roughly all at once...…

The other scenario where I would find "poaching" somewhat unethical is when the primary purpose is depriving a competing company of talent.

In that scenario, in order to entice them you might offer bonuses and salary that are disproportionate to the value those employees would contribute to your company, but the loss of those employees would cripple the competitor (loss of institutional knowledge, schedule delays and cost of finding replacements, morale, etc).

The company can counter-offer but that costs them money they wouldn't otherwise have to spend, to protect their "investment" -- the sum of the parts as you mentioned. Ideally a company would be resilient against the loss of employees (e.g. getting hit by a bus) but smaller companies like startups don't often have that luxury, which makes them more vulnerable to poaching and other shenanigans instigated by large companies.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#248

Post by tareqak » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:41 AM UTC

webmaven wrote: post #167

Waterluvian wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. I mean the laws and precedent that made it clear my non compete is unenforceable based on the idea that I have a right to... work. Oh hey and there’s the name right there!

> Thanks. I mean the laws and precedent that made it clear my non compete is unenforceable based on the idea that I have a right to... work. > Oh hey and there’s the name right there! I wish non-competes being unenforceable had a pithy associated phrase, but it doesn't. There are nuances to non-competes that sometimes get glossed over, such as non-solicitation of customers and co-workers. I believe those types of cla…

can-compete state/province?

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#249

Post by luckylion » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

ed25519FUUU wrote: post #171

tikhonj wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you can't compete on salary, you can compete on other axes. Not just financially (equity/etc), but also: - flexible schedules - autonomy + impact - interesting work - culture (respect, appreciation... etc) It's not hard for me to imagine an environment where I'd love to work despite giving up a lot of salary. Hell, I'm not unique—just look at how many incredibly skilled people choose research careers over far mo…

I still wonder why startups don’t offer more flexible work. If anything, my time in a startup was significantly less flexible than at a bigco, where I had a much bigger team to cover my shifts. It could be something as simple as a 4 day workweek. Or even 4x 10 hour days. Instead startups are a place where people are expected to put in 60 hour weeks!

Likely because people believe they'd happily give up salary for more flexible work, but really wouldn't, and so you'd not get any employees if you didn't pay high salaries and offered more flexible hours and some culture benefits.

Re: Strapped startup declines acquihire, Apple poaches key engineers; NP, says court [pdf]

#250

Post by donor20 » Mon, Oct 05, 2020, 6:45 AM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #201

donor20 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is part of the reason these countries don't have startup cultures. In the US you can just try stuff out including hiring someone who may not be a perfect fit. In the US you can pivot your startup if something isn't working, roll off 20% of your staff and you don't have to talk to a govt tribunal or go through appeals. You can make your own management calls on who you want to work with - you don't have to justi…

> In the US you can pivot your startup if something isn't working, roll off 20% of your staff and you don't have to talk to a govt tribunal or go through appeals. You can do this in the UK too, without a tribunal or appeals. What you've described is covered by "redundancy", and it's completely fine legally to make people redundant, in large numbers or small numbers.

In france you these need to be pre-approved, you have to have an employment protection plan, and even then the court can overturn all this and make you hire everyone back.

"Collective redundancies can be void by an administrative court, if the latter recognises shortfalls in the employment protection plan or if an administrative authority did not validate or approve the employment protection plan at all. In case the administrative authority validated or approved the employment protection plan without stating sufficient reasons, its decision might be invalidated by the court."

In the UK (which is MUCH more liberal and I wasn't considering the UK part of the EU) there are still plenty of steps.

For the UK "Non-compete clauses and restrictive covenants are highly enforceable in the UK in order to protect the business the employee is leaving."

https://www.ms-solicitors.co.uk/employee/faqs-employees-guid...

Redundencies can be overturned if the selection criteria for them is "unfair" or discriminates.

"You can select employees based on their length of service (‘last in, first out’) but only if you can justify it. It could be indirect discrimination if it affects one group of people more than another".

Because often some type of group is affected more than others if you lay off new hires you get into a quagmire pretty quickly.