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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#151
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope that all agree a violent crime is worse than a racist tweet. However, there is a sentiment of sympathy afforded to murderers (that they're somehow deserving of rehabilitation) which is not always extended to those who have tweeted racist things. Perhaps this comes because a murder can be seen as a sad result of circumstances. Perhaps the criminal only had to murder because they had a bad upbringing and n…

Ugh, seems you're just trying to come up with ways to apologize and gain sympathy for racists. No, it's not universal or common that people feel more empathy for murderers or criminals. People might feel empathy with more context, when remorse is expressed and time has passed, this applies to both murderers and racists. The examples in the TED talk are poor. If you're in public relations, don't make an offensive joke…

I never said it was universal to feel more sympathy for criminals, nor am I trying to apologize and/or gain sympathy for racists. How did what I wrote imply that?

The TED talk, now 5 years old, encapsulated what has now grown into "cancel culture" in a poignant anecdote. There's nothing generative or useful about this concept of prosecution (or persecution?) for making a misstep online.

I am fully in favor of implementing the Portugal drug model, implementing prison reform, and offering prisoners chances at rehabilitation. But to equivocate a racist tweet with a crime is ridiculous and, in my opinion, dangerous. This line of reasoning is barely different from the concept that speech can be violence, which is absurd. The foundation of every liberal democracy is the separation of free speech from criminality.

That principle assumes that a person's ideas can be reformed, which is what we should all hope is possible. Half of the time, alienating people for their views will only further radicalize and polarize them.

Now, to argue that a rehabilitated ex-convict is a better hire than someone actively tweeting racist things is a fine argument, but in an entirely different scope than the aforementioned comment, unless I misinterpreted it.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#152
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?

I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.

OP would've been talking about falsely maligned people who were raked over the coals by a woke mob for a relatively innocuous and most likely factually accurate statement. Not actual racists.

For example: the letter against Steven Pinker for using vernacular such as "urban crime" (he's then called racist), or the attacks against JK Rowling for taking a politically incorrect stance on trans women in female sports (she's then called transphobic). The list goes on.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#153

In Germany I was asked to provide my criminal record while working at a payment processing startup that had to obtain certain certificates. They were probably looking for crimes of a fiscal nature however, which is understandable. Second chances are second chances but security is mostly about trust. Another job at a startup in Germany that worked in less tightly controlled spaces has never asked me to produce my crim…

What crimes are applicable to software engineers, then? I don't think there are any laws punishing you from writing bad code, nor are there laws addressing data theft or security misconfigurations. GDPR applies against companies and not individual people, as far as I can tell.

Would the only valid crimes be related to computer hacking?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#154
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA, background checks are often just part of the process. There's an entire industry built around providing the service.

Readers from other countries, what is it like there? I remember when I lived in Australia, my friends told me that many crimes do not show up on background checks after 5 years. Also in Australia, the sex offender registry is confidential, and can only be checked for very specific things (jobs involving children, certain types of housing, etc.) In the US, there are ways of getting records expunged for some crimes, bu…

In the UK, it's changed recently because of a Supreme Court ruling, but AFAIK there are various levels of check depending on the specific job. In most cases a conviction for which the person was sentenced to less than 4 years in prison will eventually become 'spent' and won't show up on background checks apart from for specific jobs (such as working with children). Even for those jobs, some minor convictions are 'filtered' and removed from the record.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#155

Using the logic of some people in this thread, the day after a convinced child molester gets out of prison, he should be able to start working at a day care. Why not? He served his time- you don't want to punish him indefinitely, right? Also a convicted fraudster can start working again immediately in a bank, or as a financial advisor for your parents- after all, he served his time, right? And a convicted Mafioso or…

I think there’s a reasonable middle ground, which is: employers can discriminate based on record only if that crime has a direct relationship to the nature of the employment and the position provides a clear opportunity for abuse in the same fashion as the original crime. Ie people who commit fraud can’t work in financial services, people who hurt children can’t work in education/childcare, people convicted of corruption can’t become cops, etc. But there should be a process, over time, to cleanse even these records (although perhaps in practice there would be carve-outs for particularly heinous offenses...). This doesn’t seem particularly limiting, from my perspective, but protects against the extremes you outlined.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a huge amount of prison time in the US handed out for selling banned substances to other consenting adults?

In total, about a half million people are in jail or prison for having, using, or selling drugs. Drug crimes account for about half of Federal prisoners. But percentage-wise, when you add up federal, state, and local prisons and jails, drugs are not as large a percentage as you'd think. Another half million people in prisons or jails haven't been convicted of any crime at all, either because they can't afford bail or…

What's not captured here is that drugs are a contributing factor to many of the crimes committed. An old and rather tired example is the junky stealing to get his next fix. The crime is robbery, but the cause is drugs.

I would argue (having been in jail myself multiple times, and, by the way, thanks to a lot of factors, now very happily and gainfully employed) that drugs are at the very least a co-factor on the vast majority of crimes in the USA.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#157
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> depending on the crime, obviously Well, this is the big part that's missing from the story. 13 years seems like it was a big deal. Is it even legal to ask someone who was in prison what their crime was during an interview?

The tweet says that it was a "serious, violent crime", and that they got out early on parole, so the 13 years wasn't even the full sentence. With that amount of jail time, it looks like she murdered someone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_punishments_for_murder...

[deleted]

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

I'm not sure your statements about prison time are accurate, at least in the US. According to the Federal Bureau of Prisons, 46.2% of inmates are in for drug offenses[1] and there is definitely disagreement about whether that should be a crime, let alone an extreme crime. Additionally, 78.6% of inmates are serving sentences longer than 5 years[2], which by necessity means that a large portion of those are for drug of…

What percentage of those drug offenses are usage vs distribution?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#159
post #4

That's awesome, and depressing, when you think of how rare that is. But kudos to Jessica for giving a shit and the person in question for keeping at it.

It's a common thing that "uplifting news" has an undercurrent of something systemically wrong.

More: https://fair.org/home/media-just-cant-stop-presenting-horrif...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think a good definition of “racist tweet” would be?

I doubt there is one.

Does that mean the concept has no value, or that racist tweets do not exist (since they cannot be easily defined)?
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