Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

debugger.medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 624 posts

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#251

Post by nieve »

SifJar wrote: post #75
philplckthun wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's fine to point out the Thunderbolt mess, or the PD vs non-PD devices (although non-PD is becoming exceedingly rare as far as I can tell at least for "larger" devices), but using the Nintendo Switch seems like a bad example in my opinion, since it explicitly does not follow all USB standards, especially in fact on charging.

> it explicitly does not follow all USB standards I think that is very non-obvious though, especially for the typical consumer

Agreed, explicit is almost exactly opposite from the truth for owners. I guess if you're a hardware implementer and poke around you'll find people saying it's not USB-C, but that's not in any way Nintendo being explicit. Why they might have been explicit about would be to never use anything that wasn't Nintendo branded at a major markeup. After the last few decades of profiteering a lot of users have been trained to assume that the only reason is money.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#252

Post by crote »

josho wrote: post #98
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #37

It's honestly such a complete joke it's not even funny anymore. My USB-C MacBook Pro with it's pathetic two ports that my work bought for me is now old enough that the battery is starting to fail and we're still in a world where this single cable for power, screen and ports just doesn't seem to really exist. I'm starting to be convinced the port is fundamentally flawed, dongles with multiple ports are never reliable…

A good (read expensive) dongle will work fine. I have one that reliably powers 2 monitors (a 5k and a 4k), 1gb network and powers my macbook. I think the real problem is we get a lot of cheap products coming from China with very little quality control. QC is poor because they have no incentive to build in quality. E.g. you likely don't realize how flaky the dongle is until after the 30 day return policy, the branding…

I own a 4k @ 60Hz monitor. If I were to buy a laptop, I'd like to connect it and a bunch of USB devices via a single USB C cable. Easy, right?

Except that the monitor only supports DisplayPort 1.2. 4k60 requires a bandwidth of 12.54 Gbit/s. DP 1.2 consists of four data lanes, each providing 4.32 GBit/s, so my monitor requires four full lanes. DP 1.3 and up provide at least 7.48 Gbit/s, so 4k60 would only require two lanes for that.

USB C consists of 4 data lanes. When using the DisplayPort alternate mode, it can assign either 1, 2, or 4 data lanes to DP. The other lanes can be used for USB. In addition to that, it also offers a single USB 2.0 lane.

If a dock - even an expensive one - supports a resolution of 4k60 via DP and provides USB 3 ports, will it actually work for me? It could use DP 1.2 by assigning four data links to DP , but that means USB gets downgraded to 2.0 and I don't think any hub actually supports this. It could use DP 1.3+ and assign two data links to DP and two to USB, but if it outputs that same DP signal, it won't provide the bandwidth my monitor needs so it must actively convert two-link DP 1.3 to four-link DP 1.2. Again, I don't think any hub actually supports this.

The hardware I need can definitely exist. It's a pretty normal thing to ask for. A lot of docks, even the expensive ones, will claim to support what I need, but as far as I can tell not a single dock actually can. Because USB C has so many protocol options, figuring out what is supported has become nearly impossible.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#253

Post by kart23 »

djhaskin987 wrote: post #232

It was WORSE with USB micro, WORSE . - All the same problems: not all USB micro are created equal, some are supposed to be used at different voltages - But some cables for peripherals didn't use micro they used normal USB, which was hard to put in because you always got which way was up mixed up, that's gone now :) - What's worse, all the USB micro cables eventually bent because they were so flimsy. 6 months shelf li…

Usb micro was such a garbage cable. After 6 months of using my phone, the connector action felt completely smooth, and you could pull the cable out with no force. usb-c has been much better, feels much more consistent and has a satisfying click.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#254

Post by cptskippy »

quicklime wrote: post #207
dcchambers wrote: post #82

USB-C is mostly a mess if you try to get away using the cheapest adapters/cables you can find, that often times won't follow the spec. Most of the issues vanish if you use high-end cables/adapters from reputable manufacturers. This is a departure from the world of Micro USB where most cheap cables worked just as good as "high end" cables. There are caveats. For example, my Nintendo Switch, a major electronics device…

Another caveat is that many monitors have USB-C ports, but many (most?) cables do not support video. Even my cable from a luxury brand in Cupertino doesn't support it, so it's not just about sticking to famous brands. I'm not sure how a regular consumer is supposed to understand this. In the past, it wasn't possible to plug a VGA cable into a PS/2 port. Now, you just have to know these hidden properties of each cable…

There's also no reliable way to distinguish a cable's capabilities other than plug-n-pray.

That's not good when cable charger combinations can damage devices.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#255

Post by slykar »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

If you ignore laptops, then Micro-B basically did charge everything in my house. The introduction of USB-C made things worse, because now I have to deal with both connectors.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#256

Post by ben-schaaf »

himlion wrote: post #94
thrower123 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Micro-USB was better. Especially since there are still so many existing devices that used micro-USB ports.

No, those cables are not durable at all. Cheap or expensive, they don't last more than a few months with heavy use.

The couple daily use cables I've got have lasted years. Only cables I've had break regularly are headphone cables.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#257

Post by josho »

kcb wrote: post #227
josho wrote: post #60

The solution, I believe, is rather simple. The standards group should require any cable/device with USB 3 support to include a label on its packaging detailing which capabilities of USB 3 are supported. Think of the nutrition labels on food packaging, instead showing what the device does and does not support, something like this: Power Delivery——–30w max Thunderbolt————No support Bandwidth————–800Mbps max Video——————…

That's not going to stop the cheap cables on Amazon from mislabeling their products. This happens all the time today. Off brand HDMI cables pretty much always state specs they don't really support.

But that's not a USB-C problem, that's a consumer protection issue. I'm surprised that we don't have a bunch of class action lawsuits against Amazon for misleading advertising through their marketplace. (yes, I know many of the vendors are the ones to blame, but Amazon facilitates the transaction and is a large target to go after).

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#258

Post by untog »

INTPenis wrote: post #250
jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

Yeah I have to say I share that sentiment. Now when I travel I use my Lenovo charger to charge my Android phones and tablet. Unfortunately work provides me with an iPhone so that's still one more charger. One more piece of plastic floating around the ocean in the future. God damnit apple...

I got a USB-C to lightning cable and it works great.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#259

Post by josho »

dekerta wrote: post #249
josho wrote: post #60

The solution, I believe, is rather simple. The standards group should require any cable/device with USB 3 support to include a label on its packaging detailing which capabilities of USB 3 are supported. Think of the nutrition labels on food packaging, instead showing what the device does and does not support, something like this: Power Delivery——–30w max Thunderbolt————No support Bandwidth————–800Mbps max Video——————…

The problem with that is most people don't keep USB cables in their original packaging. How am I going to know the specs of a particular cable when it's sitting loosely in a drawer with 20 other USB cables?

Fair point, add a QR code tag to the cable that contains the specs. The general point here is that the industry could, and should, be doing something to address consumer confusion.

Re: USB-C was supposed to simplify our lives, but instead it’s a total mess

#260

Post by rolobio »

vr46 wrote: post #23
jeremymcanally wrote: post #4

Really? I find it to be a game changer for me. The fact that my laptop, Switch, iPad, and several other devices can all share a charge has made my life much easier. I can just sprinkle a few of them throughout the house and never be without power. Before it was always a hunt to find a cable, or I had to be in [x] room to charge [y] device because that's where the charger lived. Plus, I can charge my MacBook on either…

Aha - you may find that your Switch CANNOT in fact share a charge - Nintendo's port is not necessarily safe to use with anything but its supplied charger. And I've just learned this lesson with a $60 bill from Nintendo repair after the port went pop and couldn't charge the device. I only have reputable chargers in the house from Apple and one from Anker aside from the Nintendo's own. All my apple kit works fine off t…

From my research a few years ago, this is caused by the Switch asking the charger for 20V, but it actually expects 15V. The Nintendo charger obeys this hidden rule, but any other charger will happily provide 20V. I think the difference between a 20V and 15V charge isn't significant enough to blow the Switch up the first time you use it, but, over time it will blow up.
Post reply on HN