French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave • Hacker News Board

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#381

Post by Swenrekcah » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #365

echelon wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company has to pay workers for 49 - 59 weeks without getting any work? I'm all for parental leave, but that's a full year. Does the government subsidize this? That expense could sink a small company. What happens if the workers leave the company after getting the benefit? I'm really curious how European firms compete with American ones when workers can take so much time off and saddle their companies with so much r…

> A company has to pay workers for 49 - 59 weeks without getting any work? That's for each child. I worked with a guy who had 5 kids and with sick leave and holidays he worked Its a good reason why Europe is disappearing as a economic force. OTOH The other reason is not enough children so maybe my coworker ended up helping the economy.

Having more than 2 kids as a couple is actually pretty rare. Kids/woman ratio is way under 2 everywhere in Europe [0]. So this is just nonsense.

0: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#382

Post by sveme » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:49 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #266

ulfen wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it is capped at 1800 € this is a lot of money for non tech workers. And as tech worker it should be easy to afford...

Only 25% of the working German population earns less than around 2300€, 1800€ is, at minimum , a 22% reduction in salary for 75+% of the workers. The median is about ~4100€, so more than half of a pay cut for 50% of the working population. So yes, it's a good amount but still much less than the minimum 80% here in Sweden.

1800€ net, 2700€ gross.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#383

Post by briandear » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #283

tomp wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) biology (i.e. sex is not a social construct) everything else being equal - i.e. both parents having the same salary, career prospects, desire to work vs. spend time with baby, energy levels, etc. - it's simply more efficient for the woman to take care of the baby, as she's the only one that can feed it (or, more specifically, her feeding the baby is very likely medically better than using baby food)

It’s possible (and we did) to arrange for the father to feed using frozen breast milk. It’s not quite as convenient as evolution’s version, but it’s certainly possible.

Time is required to extract that milk.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#384

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:52 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #379

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech salaries aren't lower in Europe because of free healthcare and education funded by our higher taxes, they're lower because we don't have a huge government funded defense tech sector, we don't have mammoth sized, trillion dollar SW companies with a global monopoly like FAANGs that create hundreds of thousands of highly paid jobs, we don't have massive VC funds throwing money at every founder that promises to crea…

> We have very welcoming immigration laws Really? How easy is it for an American to get a work visa in France? It’s pretty damned difficult. I lived there for four years with a non-working visa and even getting that was difficult. And every year I had to show my bank statements, health insurance, and provide proof that I owned my house there. Also to your other points, only one of the FAANGs has been around for more…

Don't know about France but in spring Germany has removed the hoops companies needed to jump through to hire non-EU workers so hiring an outsider isn't much more difficult now than hiring a local. So maybe try Germany instead.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#385

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #360

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech salaries aren't lower in Europe because of free healthcare and education funded by our higher taxes, they're lower because we don't have a huge government funded defense tech sector, we don't have mammoth sized, trillion dollar SW companies with a global monopoly like FAANGs that create hundreds of thousands of highly paid jobs, we don't have massive VC funds throwing money at every founder that promises to crea…

When I'm considering where to hire my next team or open my next office (both things which I've actually done, including a European dev office [in Prague]), I assure you that I look at as much of the entire picture as I can. That includes the cost of benefits, cost of taxes, labor policies, education and size of workforce, etc. The more labor costs an employer in category X, the less the employer has left to offer lab…

Eastern europe is indeed pretty good for tech jobs.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#386

Post by nend » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:58 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #375

ptyyy wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Around the start of August I finished up my 6 weeks here in the US and it was definitely not enough. 133+ days would have been nice, but here in Freedom-Land™ I was lucky to get the 6 weeks I was given. I know a few new dads who got no paternity leave from work, or 1-3 days. Absolutely ridiculous in this day and age.

We have 12 weeks for "primary care giver" and 6 weeks for "secondary care giver". I'm very curious about how a company could determine or enforce which spouse is primary and which is secondary. From the bit of reading I've done on legal blogs, companies open themselves up to legal liability if they so much as permit a culture in which it's assumed that women are primary care givers and men are secondary much less pre…

I've seen this a lot in the US, and at least in the North East, it seems like a lot of companies are moving away from this model. It's a really difficult policy to even enforce without being discriminatory against men.

At this point in my career I take it as a red flag against the company. Women obviously still face many more hurdles than men when it comes to workplaces and an expanding family, and both genders deserve more paid time off in the US when the family grows, but policies like this end up specifically targeting men more often than not.

By default it defines men to be a less important care-giver than women.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#387

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 2:59 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #369

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And our collapsing public healthcare system. :P As my dad who still lives there told me, unless you know someone in the system or pay the doctors bribes or go to their private offices(because of course) they won't lift a finger to help you and just leave you sink in the healthcare bottomless pit of endless misery, bureaucracy and waiting lists where you keep being bounced around like a hot potato that nobody gives a…

That's on corruption, as you said. I doubt we don't have money for at least decent healthcare. I'm not talking Western standards, just: - clean hospitals - punctual appointments - basic services covered

Well we would have money for proper healthcare but due to corruption we don't have money as a lot of it goes into the pockets of politically influencial despots.

Everything being bought with public funds ends up being bought through middle men at 10x the price.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#388

Post by dgellow » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:06 PM UTC

In Switzerland we just voted Sunday for 2 weeks of paternity leave!

Of course that's lower than the 28 days for French fathers, but it's going in the good direction (at our slow swiss pace) :)

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#389

Post by dheera » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:07 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #284

black_knight wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. In Norway fathers and mothers must each take 15 weeks. And then in total there are either 49 weeks (with 100% pay) or 59 weeks (with 80% pay), so you can divide the remaining weeks between the two. But there are some inequalities in the system still. For instance, the father can only take the shared weeks if the mother is in "activity" (working or studying). While in Sweden there is no such requirements. And…

A company has to pay workers for 49 - 59 weeks without getting any work? I'm all for parental leave, but that's a full year. Does the government subsidize this? That expense could sink a small company. What happens if the workers leave the company after getting the benefit? I'm really curious how European firms compete with American ones when workers can take so much time off and saddle their companies with so much r…

> I'm really curious how European firms compete with American ones when workers can take so much time off

On one hand I guess you could compare it to American manufacturing vs. manufacturing in e.g. Vietnam, India, China where companies often fly under local labor laws and workers are worked to unreasonable hours.

On another hand I also do think there is something to be said for better mental health => better work output at least in skilled jobs. A fact that many American companies don't seem to get.

Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave

#390

Post by vmception » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:07 PM UTC

phtrivier wrote: post #204

vmception wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average age of first birth by country, across years. In a place like the US you can get more granular data down to the county level and see the same thing. Economic centers having the same trends in first birth age as other developed nations. There is an even distribution of sexual activity, you might just have to trust me on that one, but there might be some study to cross reference and show thats a constant. Given…

You seem to ne completely writing off many other factors that could make having kids later (at which age are people wealthy, independent, secure about their future, committed in a relationship, etc... compared to X generation ago ? How much access to people have to contraception ?) , as well as factors that could make you have kids earlier (peer pressure, cultural norms, etc...). "People being more selfish" might def…

> you might come across as considering it like the factor

I used the word suggest and chose it specifically. I did consider those things and chose not to write a dissertation to convey the exact same concept as the word "suggest". Do with it what you will.

It is possible to be reductive because the same thing happens in so many places. I think there are very few exceptions to "educated, choices, access to contraception" where "cultural peer pressure to have children young" actually works.