Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most swedes don't want so many kids.
Well I don't want 12 kids, but my mindset changes if enough kids means early retirement ;)
I think having 12 kids is a lot harder than going to work...
French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
151–160 of 485 posts
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#152Paternity leave can be a great thing for father/child bonding, and for equalizing opportunity for women (who face greater social/practical pressure to take their leave), who can fall behind male colleagues by taking their leave. Unfortunately, it's hard to force men to take their leave, and in the US a lot of men don't because it is frowned upon socially in many companies. One possible way to incentivize men to take…
It may not be politically correct. But the vast majority of women prefer prioritizing their children over their careers. The vast majority of men prefer being the provider for their families. > Unfortunately, it's hard to force men to take their leave How about we don't force people into things.
It's possible women prefer that because society has systemically reinforced it by normalising that gender role as an ideal for girls to grow into, while boys are steered toward a different direction
I say this as a father who prioritised my kids over my career, with a wife who prioritised her career over our kids. I know quite a few stay-at-home-mums who would much rather the adult interaction you get from a day at the office. It's just my experience, but it leads me to think there's nothing "innate" about men or women wanting to rear children
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
> People are offered leave, that's good, if they don't want to take it, it's none of anyone's business really Hum... wouldn't that depend on why you're not taking them? Say you're not taking them because of social pressure? Say you don't want to take them because doing so will put you up for promotion before your co-workers who do? Say you don't want to take them because it result in a loss of money (if say employer…
"wouldn't that depend on why you're not taking them?" No, definitely not. You've made no argument here. It's not the company or the government's business why someone would want to take family leave - or not - same for vacation time, or where someone would go, or what they do frankly. Unless it's illegal or really adversely affecting the company, or obviously if the company is trying to 'suppress' people from taking v…
It could be seen as workers rights, that's my point.
If the company is promoting those who don't, that can be seen as retaliation against those who do.
If companies don't provide adequate pay for employees who have a child, it can be seen as punishment for those who bear the burden of children for all others.
And if you're not taking them because of social pressure, well then it's a vicious cycle, since no one takes them due to pressure, and now it invalidates the point of giving them in the first place. So possibly something needs to be done to break the cycle.
Etc.
I'm not saying any of this is reason enough to push for enforcement or anything like that. But it's also not simply a matter of "not being anyone's business". For example, it can very much be my business if I want to be able to take some time off, and not lose out to my co-workers on the next promotion just because I wanted to take some time to take care for my new born. Same could be said for sick leave or other.
So I guess we could reframe the debate in terms of:
Is it fair for a man who would like to take some time to care for his new born, that doing so could hurt his career? And off course, that asks a greater question: Do we want to promote fatherhood and give incentives for people to have kids and care for them properly? Or would we rather incentivize full time careers with little to no downtime and complete dedication to work?
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is a lot of evidence to suggest that people want to be sexually active and don't want children until they have an existential crisis and many existing people are unplanned happenstances. Educated people don't have enough children to replace themselves, and its not because they are too busy. Give people the choice and most choose to do things preventing children until they have existential crisis. Remove the cho…
Would you mind sharing some of these evidence ?
Average age of first birth by country, across years.
In a place like the US you can get more granular data down to the county level and see the same thing. Economic centers having the same trends in first birth age as other developed nations.
There is an even distribution of sexual activity, you might just have to trust me on that one, but there might be some study to cross reference and show thats a constant.
Given the same result occurring in so many places, the evidence suggests people aren't interested in children until they are afraid they can't pass on their genes in a healthy way. Fix that and I would expect to see the age increasing another ten years. Fix the stamina deterioration and I would expect to see the age increasing further again.
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#155Compare this to 480 days of shared and paid parental leave in Sweden at 80% salary. The fathers are looked at negatively if the don’t take some of this time. https://www.businessinsider.com/sweden-maternity-leave-pater...
> at 80% salary. This hits home hard: my newborn is now one month old, and I had to forgo the 11 days of leave. Why? Because there’s a hard cap on the salary: I ran the numbers for me for the current 11 days in France it means over 1k€ of income just vanish, and it’s not like we can make loans, rent, and other fixed expenses disappear, right at the moment where we have to shell out money for the hospital and general…
The Swedish paternity leave is caped at 1006 SEK per day (94€), while the French one is capped at 89€ per day.
That's not a very large difference, the main difference is that the Swedish one never goes over 80% of your salary while the French one goes up to 100%.
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#15628 days? That's barely enough to get your head off from work tbh. I just finished 133 days (at 80% pay) of paternity leave here in Norway, and the last part was def more rewarding than the start as you hit your new stride and regular work life grew ever more distant.
All the organised toddler activities shut down because of covid19. Bought one of those child carrier backpacks, and we've been exploring forests and mountains almost every day this summer/fall, it's been a great bonding experience with the now 1 year old :)
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not "structurally sexism", it's biology. Practically no women ever will make it through the entirety of a pregnancy without needing (not choosing) to take some time off work if she works a full-time job. Even if this is just a single day of delivery. Generally though, it's much more than a single day that needs to be taken off. In contrast, at no point in a woman's pregnancy does the father need to take time off…
Employer payment structure is biology?
This has nothing to do with payment. People work jobs in society. Even if you don't live in a society where you get paid a wage for working that job, time still needs to be taken off work to have a baby.
It's more economically efficient (it takes time and effort to replace the work that was being done by someone, regardless of how employers are remunerating employees) to extend that person's leave than to arrange for two separate leaves for two separate jobs when there was no necessity for the second person to take time off in the first place.
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
People aren‘t paid by companies during parental leave, so I call bullshit here. And hiring laws aren‘t determined by the employee‘s nationality.
> And hiring laws aren‘t determined by the employee‘s nationality. Hiring laws aren't, but firing laws are. When I worked as a corporate lawyer, we had lawyers who specialized in knowing the employment laws in various countries and advising companies on the process for exiting, the cost for doing so, etc. I'd also disagree that people aren't paid by companies during parental leave. They are often topped-up by compani…
Firing laws are not dependent on nationality, but the location of the employer. If you are based in France, you have to adhere to French laws, simple as that. If you hire a French in the UK, the UK rules apply.
But I guess that's clear to everyone, I was just taking issue with GP's statement that his friend does not hire the French. He probably does not hire in France.
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
Having children is more important to society than having workers. It is a grim fact that the calculus of life in almost any Western country is that you can have maybe one child, but better none, if you want to have a decent life. We are literally a dying breed, and on our way to extinction, we’re wholly unable to even have a conversation about the problem.
> We are literally a dying breed, and on our way to extinction Yes, of course, humanity's biggest problem is currently that we're basically going extinct because we're not reproducing enough.
What is our target? 20 billion? Will we be still a dying breed?
Re: French fathers will now get 28 days of paternity leave
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most swedes don't want so many kids.
Well I don't want 12 kids, but my mindset changes if enough kids means early retirement ;)
Countries like Sweden have many forms of welfare. A lot of people are working for cultural and pride reasons and not because they would be living under a bridge or on Howard St if they weren't working.