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Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

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Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#301
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah okay, now I better understand what you meant. Personally I think it's true that the size of the climate disaster is absolutely enormous and we really do need radical changes throughout the global economy. But if you don't share that opinion then I see why you'd want to see a citation with such a statement, even if you don't deny that the CO2 in the air is man-made and causing the planet to become a lot less hospit…

This is the first link that comes up when I google the BioScience manifesto: https://www.washingtonpost.com/science/2019/11/05/more-than-... > A new report by 11,258 scientists in 153 countries from a broad range of disciplines warns that the planet “clearly and unequivocally faces a climate emergency,” and provides six broad policy goals that must be met to address it. The analysis is a stark departure from recent s…

From your article:

> the catastrophist framing of climate change is self-defeating because it alienates and polarizes many people.

That rings very true unfortunately :/

> often accompanied by demands that poor nations be denied the cheap sources of energy they need to develop

I have literally only ever heard that argument in articles that say this is a stupid argument. Who'd ever say that? These people have bigger problems than climate change and don't have the resources or infrastructure or do something about it. The poorest also pollute the least per capita. It's us who can do something.

But then the article builds on that logic by saying:

> “If you want to minimize carbon dioxide in the atmosphere in 2070 you might want to accelerate the burning of coal in India today,”

Which doesn't logically follow. No, we can't expect the poorest of this planet to buy or build hi-tech solar panels and batteries when they could simply dump coal in a steam turbine and be done with it, but it's also not the case that we're optimizing for CO2 in 50+ years. Those are two different statements. In fifty years we'll be long over our CO2 budget and potential runaway effects have long been triggered.

Anyway, the premise of the article is not necessarily wrong. The last sentence captures its point reasonably:

> Happily, there is a plenty of middle ground between climate apocalypse and climate denial.

And it also captures why I'm afraid the article is (unintentionally) a bit misleading. The author clearly understands climate change, and he's also clearly frustrated with extremists calling it an apocalypse (or, in your words, doomsday predictions). Indeed, I'd describe something as apocalyptic or doomsday if it threatened the lives of most of us, and that's not the case here.

So he's arguing against exaggerating to a point that very few people (a vocal but tiny minority perhaps) agrees with. That's a correct argument, but it's very easy to extrapolate that to what was said above: "[no] urgent need for radical changes in the global economy". It might not threaten most humans' lives, but that doesn't mean it's not big enough of a deal to implement radical changes. Intuitively, the "plenty of middle ground" between apocalypse and denial centers around "it's there but not that big a deal". I don't think that's what the author meant to argue. Especially if one only looks at the headline and is already inclined (as many Americans seem to be) to think that the whole climate thing is not as important as activists make it out to be. Those readers are now going to be more strongly convicted, while the article isn't actually that blunt. The headline is meant to catch readers' eyes but thereby sends the wrong message.

The question that remains is how bad it's going to be. The author didn't really convince me there. There are error margins on any prediction, and most meaningful predictions build on other predictions with their own error margins. We don't yet know how to be self-sufficient. If we're fine with letting natural food chains collapse, do we have all the dependencies needed for growing the food we need to stay healthy? Not everything will go extinct at once, but we don't know which parts will be able to adapt, so we need to make sure we captured the whole (circular) dependency chain.

We'll probably find solutions to missing pieces, hence my not expecting it's going to be the end of humanity, but how fast will we figure it out? How fast can we scale up synthesizing that? There's just so many unknowns. Reducing a single variable, CO2 in the air, seems trivial when compared to the engineering feats we'll need to artificially make the earth hospitable to 10 billion people.

One thing in the article that keeps coming back is the koala. I don't know why he keeps bringing it up, it really doesn't matter if koalas specifically are still around. The question of food chains would be much more relevant.

Another thing is the wildfires, cited in a few places to not currently be solely caused by climate change. Again, not something I think many people really claim in the first place. The message, as I see it in climate activists' promotional materials, is more that we'll see more of this in the future. The article confirms that climate change is already playing a role, albeit small and definitely not a singular cause, and the climate has as of yet barely changed.

Another place where the article is a bit odd is this:

> “There is robust evidence of disasters displacing people worldwide,” notes IPCC, “but limited evidence that climate change or sea-level rise is the direct cause”

The "notes IPCC" part is a link to a PDF which does not contain that citation, even in part (the world "displacing" doesn't occur at all and "robust evidence" is used in one spot but not something that seems relevant to this quote). I looked it up because it sounded weird in the first place. Why would a panel on climate change look at displacement caused by sea level rise when it has been changing on the order of centimeters per decade? Of course you would find "limited" evidence for that directly causing displacement.

The cited rise itself is also using 2007 numbers which were adjusted by the IPCC in 2014 (and the article is from 2019 so it could easily have used those numbers), but whether it's 0.6m or 0.9m, I guess the consequences aren't all that different.

As a Dutchman I also feel obliged to say something about the representation of our situation. It says we learned to live 7 meters below sea level 400 years ago... even with today's tech we couldn't simply manage a wall of 7 meters of sea. This -6.76m point is 30km inland. Every meter of rise would be a really big deal (glancing at a heightmap (AHN3), one of the higher sea-to-land-after-dike height differences seems to be -1m). But we're just a tiny country and it wouldn't make sense for everyone to do a lot of effort just for us, so enough about us. This thing about the Netherlands just isn't accurate in multiple ways.

That said, I thought the predicted sea rise would be on the order of meters, not less than a meter. That's one takeaway from this article in which the effects of climate change will be less bad than I thought. Wikipedia has another chart that shows a few meters of potential change, but of course I can't tell who among all the smart people is most likely to be right, so I'll stick with that it's very likely going to be less than 1m.

So let me just try to end on that. I spent 3 hours looking into this now, from reading the article to putting my concerns into words while learning more about various aspects. Another takeaway in the same vein is that when digging into Wikipedia's citations, it's often not put as starkly as Wikipedia's text actually says. Nevertheless, I hope I also showed that the article doesn't argue that we don't have a very big and urgent problem (even if it's not an "everyone will certainly die" kind of big).

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#302
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total subjugation is surprisingly stable, you end up with a poor society but starving peasants don’t revolt nearly as much as you might think. Looking at say English history you find various factions fighting each other, but it’s the upper crust instigating things. Similarly, Tsarist russia became less stable after industrialization and a rising standard of living. In the end war is expensive because fighters aren’t…

Total subjugation is internally stable - your peasants are not that likely to revolt, but you will fall behind your more open neighbours because you'll be much less productive, and that opens you up to external threats. Tsarist Russia and other nations of the time did not really have a choice to abandon industrialization for the sake of stability, it would just have caused it to be ripped apart by the industrialized…

From this you could then make the case for instability in the current developed-world being a healthy phenomenon. Which is a nice thought if true.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that, you have no clue what it's like to live in the real deal.

If you think that, you have no clue what it's like to live in the real deal.

Correct. Because, you see, I don't live in the real deal. I don't live in anything approaching an authoritarian state, even if you include class as well as party.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#304
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahaha! I am flattered. But, like all the villains in the movies, I don't see myself as the bad guy. You're trying to screw me out of my share while clearly not contributing your share, and I have access to a slow WMD you can't stop. That's just bad negotiating on your part. You can: 1. Try to disarm me, but you are unable. 2. Try to not screw me, and it'll be fine. 3. Do your bit, and it'll be fine. Listen, what tha…

By that time, it will be too late to save even remnants of humanity. But your line of reasoning perfectly shows that it fine - humanity going extinct is a good thing. The universe is better off without the like of us.

Haha no. Realistic worst case predictions are 1E8 deaths. We're at 1E10 population. Humanity will endure.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total subjugation is internally stable - your peasants are not that likely to revolt, but you will fall behind your more open neighbours because you'll be much less productive, and that opens you up to external threats. Tsarist Russia and other nations of the time did not really have a choice to abandon industrialization for the sake of stability, it would just have caused it to be ripped apart by the industrialized…

From this you could then make the case for instability in the current developed-world being a healthy phenomenon. Which is a nice thought if true.

The argument cuts both ways:

Early tyrannical states and back-breaking agriculture outcompeted relatively free and comfortable hunter gatherers.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it?

India's independent democracy is messy, however it is young and India is a giant nation. A democracy of 1.4 billion people that even partially functions is a remarkable feat. What they're attempting is obviously no small task. Europe for example has several poorly functioning democracies, to go with two dictatorships. Among ~195 nations, there are not more than three dozen well operating democracies among them, along…

India is a sort of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ochlocracy

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#307
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Cold War, and even WW2 are part of the current period when it comes to the ‘hinge of history’ argument. They’re not saying this year is the most influential, or even this decade. I think it comes down to the explosive industrial growth and technological advances over the last few hundred years, and next hundred years or so. It’s a unique confluence of incredible capability with little understanding of the…

These jabs we throw at oppressive regimes only signal that we are not ready to deal with our own oppressive regime. We have been the boot for a while now, rosy shaded boot, with lights on the side and WiFi. Having to read such well thought out statements while throwing shade at others only feeds my pessimism in foreign policy/domestic media control. Good luck dealing with the never ending boogeyman.

I don't really understand your point. Are you saying we can't tackle a clear case of oppression because there are other cases of oppression? Why can't we talk honestly about and attempt to address all cases of oppression whenever we see them.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#308
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total subjugation is surprisingly stable, you end up with a poor society but starving peasants don’t revolt nearly as much as you might think. Looking at say English history you find various factions fighting each other, but it’s the upper crust instigating things. Similarly, Tsarist russia became less stable after industrialization and a rising standard of living. In the end war is expensive because fighters aren’t…

Total subjugation is internally stable - your peasants are not that likely to revolt, but you will fall behind your more open neighbours because you'll be much less productive, and that opens you up to external threats. Tsarist Russia and other nations of the time did not really have a choice to abandon industrialization for the sake of stability, it would just have caused it to be ripped apart by the industrialized…

That only works if there is an open neighbour. If we end up with authoritarian control being ubiquitous, as potentially with a victory by the axis powers, or the success of global Communism, there wouldn't be any open neighbours to compete with.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#309
post #9

I didn't read the article, but the answer is emphatically yes. We are rubbing up against the reality that most humans are less and less valuable to other humans such that they are basically valueless, and their market value diminishes accordingly, and that technological advances and market efficiencies are actually eliminating scarcity within certain arenas. We have to grapple with the fact that most humans offer alm…

> We are rubbing up against the reality that most humans are less and less valuable to other humans such that they are basically valueless, By what standard are we "valuing humans less" ? This seems to fly against the facts. Global death from almost all causes have gone down. e.g. "Battle" related death - which is the most clear evidence of valuing human life less than political gains have dramatically fallen: https:…

I wrote that comment when I was drunk, so let me try to clarify.

I don't mean we value human life less in the way that a woke 14 year old means that, which is the way you seem to have interpreted it. I mean it in the sense of market value. Technology and market efficiency are leading to your average person being less valuable to other people, and fewer people being substantially more valuable. Maybe one farmer can now feed 100,000 people. The 999 people it used to take to feed those 100,000 people are actually less valuable to society than they were prior to the technological and market advances that allowed that one person to feed 100,000 people. Sure they can get different jobs, and new jobs are created, but there is no guarantee that this happens according to any functional ratio; it's certainly not 1:1.

This is essentially why wages are stagnating. Most people are actually worth less to society than they used to be. And again, I don't mean that in the woke sense, I mean it in the market sense. I mean that wages are accurately reflecting their true market value, and that value is less and less as time goes on. I think that the minimum barrier to entry in order to produce market value is constantly rising, and is basically happening on the basis of something like IQ. Maybe the next century will be characterized by more jobs like software and hardware engineers, while even those jobs will change and eventually be done by fewer and fewer people, but the point is that not everyone will actually be able to do those jobs. If nurses and doctors and PAs are phased out in favor of diagnostic algorithms and service utilities, for example, that doesn't mean that those millions of roles will have millions of new roles created in order to service the technology. And more importantly, the new roles to service the technology might actually require capabilities that most of those people are not actually capable of.

I'm not making a statement about society being some way and it should be some other way. I'm saying that our societies are fundamentally predicated on the notion that stability can be achieved simply due to the idea that people provide relative value to one another. This idea is what has allowed liberal democracies to function with minimal authoritarian influence. That most people are capable of providing sufficient utility to one another such that, left to their own devices, they are able to secure resources for themselves by providing utility to others. This is less true now than it was, and will continue to be less true as time goes on. All I'm saying is that we're approaching a hinge point where we have to grapple with this reality.

Re: Are we living at the 'hinge of history'?

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It reminds me of getting on a stand-up paddle board. As you find your balance, there is a wobbling. If you haven't done it in a while, it feels almost certain you will fall. But (usually for me), you find your balance, and suddenly you are floating in the water, like Jesus Christ himself. With all the new elements in society, I think we're all "finding our balance". And once we have, we'll be able to explore the futu…

Ahh yes, nothing like melting the ice caps and flooding several countries to "find the balance" between being able to be alive and everyone on the planet owning 3 automobiles to ensure GM has a profitable quarter

That's actually a great example of my point. Thanks for making it. I agree, not everybody needs 3 cars. And we also can't guarantee everyone soon be alive forever, or didn't you hear we're mortal? The sooner we can stop anchoring on straw men and unattainable dreams, the sooner we can actually solve problems. It doesn't feel as good as tilting against the windmills, but it's the path forward that's available to us.
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