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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#541
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this type of comment a lot in these discussions on the App Store - "no one is forcing you to make an iOS app". No, no one is holding a gun to your head to make an iOS app. But you know what, people need to make money to pay the mortgage and feed their kids. If you're a programmer who has years of experience, who wants to make money in the field you have years of experience in, the field you likely enjoy doing a…

Oh no, won't someone think of the... talented and skilled white-collar worker in one of the hottest and highest paying industries of all time that can work literally anywhere? Enough with the appeals to emotion.

You're right, we should side with the multi-trillion dollar company that refuses to pay taxes on their multi-billion dollar profits.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#542
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing them to develop for iOS. I will bet you dollars to donuts developers are very happy about the money they make from iOS otherwise they wouldn't be there.

> No one is forcing them to develop for iOS. The market is. You can not afford not to publish something on iOS, if iOS were a niche platform used only by 1% of users maybe, but it is a mainstream platform used by more than 40% of users in the US.

I find it hard to believe that 100% of the market is the exact perfect amount that any given developer needs to sustain their business. 99% is already too little, and 60% is a non-starter. And yet this is the same market where tens to hundreds of companies have proliferated into billion dollar entities in mere years.

It's nothing more than greed, just like the greed you supposedly fight against.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#543
post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then don't install the other stores. (That's how people who say "then don't use Apple devices" sounds like).

That sounds like you conceding that it would be a bad situation. One can think that the current situation has problems and also see that the remedy will make things much worse. These are not in contradiction.

Not having choices is a bad situation. I would be surprised if you thought otherwise.

Imagine not being able to ditch the App Store the way publishers have done so in the Mac App Store:

https://bohemiancoding.tumblr.com/post/134322691555/leaving-...

https://panic.com/blog/coda-2-5-and-the-mac-app-store/

https://sixcolors.com/post/2014/10/bbedit-at-max-q/

Imagine an App Store update breaking all of your apps:

https://techcrunch.com/2015/11/18/apple-acknowledges-mac-app...

The App Store approach basically gives you 1 choice if you're uneasy with the status quo: To get out.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#544

"The Coalition for App Fairness", I cannot not laugh. On the stage you have: Epic - Trying to be the next Valve/Steam. Happy to rip off their customers via in-game transactions. Spotify - Who rip off artists by either failing or paying very little in royalties. Tinder - Sells sex. None of these companies have any care for the actual developer; who are the folk trying to make a living from their creations.

apparently neither does apple

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#545

Can users and developers who are in favor of keeping the App Store as is form an advocacy group too? I’ve been collecting a list of arguments in favor of maintaining the status quo on iOS and I’ve yet to see anyone offer a good solution to these: ---- The problems with letting all apps advertise external payment systems: • Someone may publish a free app to avoid paying anything to Apple, and then charge users [an ass…

>Someone may publish a free app to avoid paying anything to Apple, and then charge users [an asston of] money to ""unlock"" via an alternate payment system.

So don't use that app.

>Users may not be able to see a list of all in-app purchases (and their guaranteed prices) as they can on the App Store, without downloading the app.

If a store is missing a feature you want, you can simply choose not to use it.

>Sharing your payment details and other information with multiple entities, and having to continually trust each of them (e.g. to not abuse or leak).

This is a real problem, but solving it with an app store monopoly is a case of the cure being worse than the disease. Besides, I think the risks of sharing you credit card number are wildly overstated. You can issue a chargeback on any transaction, and reverse fraudulent purchases.

>Confused users may clog up Apple's customer support with complaints related to third-party payment systems.

Confused users already have enough complaints to clog up Apple's customer support with. Apple can just tell them to contact the third party's support.

>Angry users may demand Apple to offer refunds for shit that was paid for via third-party payment systems.

And Apple may tell them no. They're adults, the made a decision, now they have to live with the consequences.

>How will iOS sandboxing be enforced for apps delivered via third-party stores? Will those apps still have to be submitted to and signed by Apple?

That's not how sandboxing works.

>Store apps would need the privilege to write binaries on your iPhone. How will that privilege be regulated to prevent abuse? e.g. what happens if a store starts writing malware?

Malware is software that acts against the interests of the user. Nobody can know what the user wants except the user themself, so it must be the user's responsibility to install only the apps that they want on their device. This is already the current situation, since malware exists on the Apple App Store.

It's worth noting the although I'm technically on Epic's side here, I don't trust Epic and I would not install any of their software on one of my computers.

>Users may sometimes have to wait longer for an app to update on one store than on others (as already happens on Steam vs GoG).

Sometimes there are good reasons for this. For example, F-Droid users usually have to wait longer for updates than Google Play users, since F-Droid has a much more thorough review process. I think it's worth waiting longer so that I know the app hasn't introduces anti-features with its updates. Other people might disagree, and prefer getting updates as fast as possible. That's fine, Android allows multiple app stores so we can both get what we want.

I think this is also an interesting point: We've talked a lot about users who think the Apple App Store's rules are too strict but what about the users who think they aren't strict enough?

>Developers would no longer be assured that they will have access to literally all the users that iOS has, by publishing on just one store.

The Apple App Store will still be installed on every iOS device, unless you choose to remove it. No one is arguing otherwise.

>You would have to submit to each store, wait for approval on each of them, update for each of them... to come close to the userbase that you can currently access by just publishing once on the App Store.

Maybe so, but this is a relatively minor inconvenience, and apps are still free to choose to provide their app only on the Apple App Store, which every iPhone will have except where the user chose to remove it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not. Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.

> Analogies illustrate a concept Effectively illustrating the right concept is, in my opinion, the hardest part of communication. Analogies are powerful because they're intuitive illustrations. > I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do Yes and no. Analogies communicate concepts, and concepts support arguments. Analogies neither support arguments nor fail to support arguments; t…

This distracting off-topic sub-thread about distracting analogies is wonderfully ironic.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#547

As an Android user, DAE wish we could see some similar collaboration across some of the vendors running downstream forks? The Apple tax comes up a lot, but there's a whole separate conversation to be had about Google Play APIs as a major choke point rendering other Android implementations "incompatible."

That's a great idea, Google shouldn't be exempt from criticism and activism just because Android is more open than iOS. It's also a good way to put the irritating "why don't you go after Google too?" whataboutism that abounds in any discussion that critiques Apple.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#548
post #152

Ah, okay. Now I begin to see their goals. I've been trying to wrap my head around why Epic would shoulder-tackle Apple in the space of app stores, when they have their own app store. Naively, I've been thinking that any ruling adverse to Apple here also impacts Epic's business model---if the government caps app store revenue cuts at, say, 10%, that's a slice off the top of what Epic can charge developers going throug…

I think it’s worth noting how hostile Epic’s app store is to its customers. They force you to use it to launch games you’ve already purchased from them, which just means you have to waste processor cycles to wade through a grip of their blaring ads (and can only imagine the data they’re collecting/monetizing from this) Pure enter through the gift shop. The dark patterns are egregious as well; a tech-savvy friend boug…

Strange that that's an option. Looks like some sort of legacy option so Unreal Engine devs don't have to deal with the store.

Image of the option: https://www.epicgames.com/help/en-US/epic-games-store-c73/la...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah until Facebook moves all their apps to their own App Store so they don’t have to deal with all of Apple’s pesky privacy rules.

What privacy rules would those be? Why would iOS privacy settings be affected by the install method? What would be different from the Facebook SDK that's already installed in millions of apps on the App Store today?

Abusing private APIs would be a major issues. Binaries uploaded to the App Store are inspected to ensure that they aren't abusing any private APIs. Facebook controlling their own store would allow them to circumvent this check. In the past, private APIs have been used to track users, amongst other malicious behaviour.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#550

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

Hofstadter would like to have a word with you.

Seriously though, there's good evidence that literally everything the human brain does is use analogies. The classic example being if I asked whether something is "in" your field of view. Without even thinking, you know how to conceptualize something that only exist in your mind as a physical container.

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