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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#391

Post by makerofthings »

acomjean wrote: post #319
makerofthings wrote: post #263

As a consumer, I really like how the AppStore works and I buy iPhones for me and for my family specifically because there is only one store and one way of subscribing and one way of using in-app purchases. I really, really hope Apple win this. I just don't want to have to deal with the possibility that every app is going to have its own in-app-purchase dark patterns. If everyone that wants to be able to side-load alt…

So you like having only 1 app store for convince. I get that. But there is an legitimate argument to be made by those who do want it. The lack of competition is probably hurting you too, in the form of higher prices for everything. If there were alternatives you wouldn't be forecd to use them. What if apple starts trying to monetize in ways you don't like? (like trying even more aggressively to get appleTV/ AppleMusi…

I like that Apple forces app developers to use a system that is convenient and safe for me as the device owner. I don't think it would be a case of "ignore the alternatives", I expect many apps would abandon apple to save a few dollars and I would have to put my credit card into half the apps I currently use. I buy the phone and the apps for my benefit, not the benefit of Epic.

I have to be honest, I subscribe to a lot more services through Apple than I would outside because I trust their cancellation mechanism. Developers may lose 30% on my purchases but they might not get anything outside of the walled garden.

Also, I have a Sony Xperia running Sailfish, sat over there-->, for when I feel the need to tinker.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#392

Post by dodobirdlord »

tombert wrote: post #378
clansimus wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "great for developers" just shouldn't matter. It should be about what the consumers want.

A worse time for developers means worse apps, worse apps means less-happy consumers. They aren't mutually exclusive.

It doesn’t follow at all that a worse time for developers means worse apps or less-happy consumers. Any time Apple enforces any kind of standard it’s “worse for developers”. I’m sure lots of developers are annoyed with Apple’s approach to fine-grained and highly visible app permissions, and wish they could just have full access to the user’s device. Screwing those people over is obviously good.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#393

Post by stale2002 »

panragon wrote: post #271
sneak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If users didn’t want these things, users wouldn’t buy them. For the vast majority of people, and iPhone is way, way better than a computer that can run any app, precisely because it can’t run any app they click on. I’m a hacker, so I would love to be able to install any software I want on my iPhone, and introspect it in other ways. Most users, however, would have a way worse experience using their phone if they were…

I have this discussion nearly daily when talking with Android users. The iPhone is not a modular unit that can be tampered with at all, but despite even being a software developer, I do not actually care about my phone being modular. I want it to work and I want it to work well across the entire platform. Not only does iOS severely limit your options for changing your phone's UX, something a lot of people lament abou…

> Please don't give me root access to my iPhone, I do not care about it, I have no need for it, and I do not want it

Then don't turn on root mode?

Nobody will force you to do anything, if I am given the option of easilu turning on root mode, and you can simply choose to not turn that on.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#394

Post by tobr »

The page is blocked by this message...

> We use cookies to give you the best possible experience on our website. By continuing to browse this site, you give consent for cookies to be used. For more details, please read our Cookie Policy.

...with the only option being “I accept” (and by the way, you’re not allowed to read the cookie policy without first accepting it. Christ).

Honestly, this thoroughly undermines the message about “consumer freedom”.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#395

Post by M4v3R »

izacus wrote: post #188
burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

> To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. This would be true if iPhone would be only a toy. But it's also the only source of person-to-person communication, source of news and primary computing device for large part of USA population. And that makes it very different from a PS5. By market share. By use. By impact. And IMPACT is what we're measuring here.

Where do you draw the line, though? PlayStation / Xbox are basically computers from a technical standpoint. They have hundreds of millions of users. They also store your personal data and credit card information should you provide it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#396

Post by slaymaker1907 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #337
curiousllama wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogies can be powerful if told well. It just so happens that they're hard to tell well. Source: Cheerios

What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not. Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.

They can certainly work as a proof, it's just one of the conditions on it being proof usually fail. Argument by metaphor says that A and B are isomorphic to one another and that since they are isomorphic, we can apply proofs from A to B (maybe with some modification). The problems come from either establishing the isomorphism or in mapping properties/predicates from one to the other.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#397

Post by jpambrun »

pb7 wrote: post #373
jpambrun wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing you to use 3rd party store for few apps is somehow worst than forcing everyone to use the Apple store for all apps? This discussion is moot. Apple only has to lower it's cut to cost + a reasonable markup instead of abusing it's position to charge 30%. Then everybody can be happy.

It's not going to be a few apps and they might not even be a few stores. It's going to be a bunch of stores with varying rules and conditions and bars for quality and selection of apps. I'm not interested in that because I don't trust other companies to do the right thing. If you're interested in that, you can use Android. No one is forcing you to use iOS. Also, there is no reason to believe any percentage is too hig…

I think it's getting obvious that the situation is untenable. If it's not the US courts, some other court will likely enact changes.

In the end it doesn't matter how Apple and Google got to this duopoly position of power, if it was fair or of they had to work hard. The fact that matters is where they are now.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#398

Post by vlozko »

realusername wrote: post #217
burlesona wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

> To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. Not to consumers, it's replacing the computer market (especially in the developed world) and even Apple themselves market their products as computer replacements.

But that shouldn’t be an imposition on Apple to make an identical experience to what it’s replacing. It can be both a console and a replacement to a computer. The intended purpose of the two can be the same but have a different way of going about it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#399

Post by gpm »

cblconfederate wrote: post #367

I don't see why they would advocate Apple to change their app store. Is it possible for one corporate to meddle into the product of another? They are also unlikely to achieve anything on the legal side of things. Instead they 'd better spend for things like : - promote awareness of monopolistic tactics to apple device owners - create a well advertised web payments gateway where users can buy subscriptions to any app,…

> Is it possible for one corporate to meddle into the product of another

Not really (except via negotiation), but it is possible for the government to. I'm not completely clear on the purpose of this coalition. Presumably it is either too fund lawsuits like Epic's (which is asking the government to stop Apple violating existing anti-trust laws), or to fund lobbying activities (which is asking the government to create stronger anti-trust laws, or to enforce them themselves instead of requiring a third party like Epic to step in and argue that they should be enforced). Or both.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#400

Post by yazaddaruvala »

danShumway wrote: post #258
_qulr wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I was thinking of joining, but the fact that the site didn't work without turning off my ad blocker was a turnoff. Why do they even need cookies? Terrible first impression.

The amount of blindness I'm seeing from companies on both sides of this fight about how to handle their optics is kind of staggering. One of Apple's core arguments for why they need this kind of control is privacy. If someone is launching what is essentially a PR campaign against Apple, one of the first things to do is to make sure the website doesn't have any appearance of violating people's privacy. Make it work wi…

This. The problem is regardless of it being either side of Hanlon's razor, malice or stupidity, I have built trust with Apple and prefer the centralized Apple (over the decentralized dev-houses of the world) to do its best to ensure neither malice nor stupidity in the product I use most throughout the day.
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