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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#331

Post by cwhiz »

actuator wrote: post #309

Why is Microsoft not in on this? Apple didn't allow Xbox Game Pass, while Samsung was proudly showcasing gaming on their phones on it. They seem to be the most hard done by unfair Apple practices. As far as I understand, they are not allowing the gaming service at all when it for all intents is nothing different from Netflix in principle. I certainly hope Microsoft joins in on this and not cut a side deal, it will hu…

Microsoft does not allow anyone else to sell digital Xbox games.

This is the crux of all of this. Apple is doing what everyone else is doing. Google charges 30% and kicked Fortnite off the play store. Steam charges 15-30%. Microsoft and Sony have a monopoly on digital distribution of games on their console platforms, and charge some percent that I can't easily find.

Hell, if you take this thought to conclusion, Epic has a monopoly on the Fortnite digital store.

The idea that Apple is a monopoly is pretty silly. There is obviously smartphone competition, and Apple is a minority player. The idea that Apple has a monopoly on iOS and the App Store is true... but if that is illegal then it should also be illegal for Epic to have a monopoly on skins in Rocket League. I find that to be a pretty preposterous proposition.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#332

Post by dylan-m »

katbyte wrote: post #240
echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

The problem is when you let companies run free they do bad things. There are bad actors out there and apples wall garden keeps them at bay and in check. I LIKE not having to worry about what I install from the App Store. Adding random apks or even downloading anything from the play store can legitimately be unsafe. At that I don’t trust companies with credit cards and subscriptions - I trust apple. I get an email for…

> Adding random apks or even downloading anything from the play store can legitimately be unsafe.

It has been unsafe, but Android was designed with this in mind and is continually improving its security model. For instance, Android 11 added a regular check-in for permissions you have granted to apps and tightened a bunch of other loose ends like background location access.

(In general, barring unpatched security vulnerabilities, it's about as unsafe as blindly clicking things in your web browser, or believing the weird robot that calls you every day really should know your bank account number. You can try to help this using technology, but it is not a technology problem).

Apple does the same kind of work all the time, tightening sandboxes and patching vulnerabilities, but they always have the crutch of app reviews to fall back on. But it is completely wrong to believe that crutch is the thing between iOS as a reliable platform and iOS as a malware-ridden hellscape. That's what Apple wants you to think, but their developers are not actually that stupid.

For evidence on how you can build a solid, reasonably secure platform without this kind of crutch, you might consider Linux on servers, desktop MacOS, modern desktop Linux (particularly stuff like Fedora Silverblue), even modern Windows. This is not a solved problem by any means, but it's solved enough that giving up, closing the gate and throwing away the key is completely counter-productive.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#333

Post by pb7 »

jpambrun wrote: post #194
kemiller wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... many people actually appreciate the walled garden as consumers.

Allowing other stores doesn't mean you have to use them. You could still have your curated experience on the Apple store. Why do you want to impose your views on others?

Yes, it does mean that you have to use them (if you already do). If you're a user of Spotify or Tinder and they pull out of the App Store, you now have to follow whatever arbitrary consumer-hostile decisions that will make them the most money since there's no one to tell them otherwise. I like that they have to follow the strict rules in the App Store because I know they want that sweet sweet App Store money and won't pull out unless there's a less strict option. It's like giving auto manufacturers a choice to either sell via dealerships that follow EPA laws or those that don't. Gee, I wonder which one they will go with given the choice?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#334

Post by mhh__ »

makerofthings wrote: post #263

As a consumer, I really like how the AppStore works and I buy iPhones for me and for my family specifically because there is only one store and one way of subscribing and one way of using in-app purchases. I really, really hope Apple win this. I just don't want to have to deal with the possibility that every app is going to have its own in-app-purchase dark patterns. If everyone that wants to be able to side-load alt…

How many apps do we use that don't have an identical counterpart on another platform? I have an android phone and looking at it, I think the only app I have installed myself that isn't available on the iPhone is an app that lets you write a shader to use as your background.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#335

Post by emptysongglass »

sempron64 wrote: post #145
emptysongglass wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, this figure is closer to half. The point is not the market share they control but that they also control and set the rates to the marketplace within. To quote Senator Warren: >If you run a platform where others come to sell, then you don’t get to sell your own items on the platform because you have two comparative advantages. One, you’ve sucked up information about every buyer and every seller bef…

I’m not a huge fan of Apple’s arbitrary-feeling restrictions on developers and of their market power, but the following argument can be made to show they really are not monopolistic abusers who should be regulated against: Costco charges a membership to use their store (“platform”), similar to buying an iPhone. Costco offers reduced-price store brand goods. Costco controls and decides which third-party goods are avai…

>If a consumer does not like the experience of purchasing their apps in the app store, they can use Safari to access the web site, purchase an Android or use a PC for their computing needs, and a console/portable for their gaming needs.

That sounds like an incredible headache for the customer wishing to opt for an alternative.

> If ALL mobile platforms did not allow sideloading and charged similar rates, AND it was impossible to create a new mobile platform (admittedly difficult, RIP Microsoft, Blackberry, Nokia, Firefox OS) AND it could be shown webapps are not viable (they are viable) then Apple plus the other platform might have an anti-trust problem.

You've made my argument for me: nobody wants to use a webapp and just about no one does. There's only one other mobile platform with any market share and it's Google's Android. The Sisyphean task of launching a new OS into this fray is so high that even an authoritarian nation-state isn't going to do it, so let's just call a spade a spade and say it's impossible.

Google's Android doesn't give you blue bubbles so say goodbye to much of your iPhone-privileged social circle, which uses blue bubbles as a new kind of social elitism predicated on wealth-peacocking. You're essentially bullied into one avenue or the other and the apps you paid for a long tether of slavery to the platform you've picked. It's enough to give someone Stockholm syndrome but I'm not yet out catching bullets for them, are you?

All of these corporations need to be broken up. The problem is not just Apple. But Apple's platform is locked down so tight they will stop at nothing to get their penny's share, whether you're a cool new email service (Hey) or you want to launch a gaming cloud service (xCloud, Stadia, you-name-it).

This is not Costco selling generic fruits and meats for your consumption. This is a dominion of access to how you communicate, to how you read, to how you play.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#336

Post by notyourday »

echelon wrote: post #167
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

> Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious.

As long as there's no law where if a company refuses to cancel a "recurring billing" with the same number of clicks that was done to create a recurring billing a customer can immediately collect N times the amount of subscription value from the company the likes of Epic, Match and Spotify can go and eff themselves. Customers like app store payments because the alternatives demonstrated to be swindling scum.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#337

Post by lotsofpulp »

curiousllama wrote: post #317
dgellow wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

Analogies can be powerful if told well. It just so happens that they're hard to tell well. Source: Cheerios

What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not.

Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#338

Post by AlexandrB »

bad_user wrote: post #300
AlexandrB wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they implement a subpar walled garden, it will be up to the users to exercise choice on using them, which they currently can't. Epic games store is a very subpar walled garden. It's the only way to access several games that are either in exclusivity agreements with Epic or were purchased by Epic outright (RIP Rocket League). Spotify is (IMHO) a subpar walled garden. They recently purchased exclusivity for Joe Ro…

I very much agree, but... > They recently purchased exclusivity for Joe Rogan, if you want to listen to him in the future you have to use Spotify. Joe Rogan's podcast is anti-science crap. That it moved to a walled garden, restricting access to it, I find that as being a gift to the world.

Eh. Not a fan myself, but it's a good example of highly popular content that Spotify is using to restrict consumer choice and promote their own platform.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#339

Post by nemothekid »

starbugs wrote: post #294
nemothekid wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. While techies lived in their utopia, the rest of us without the ability to compile from source were tricked into downloading spyware, profiled, and scammed from dubious "developers". These problems were known, but nothing was done about them in the name of "developer freedom". A company comes along and offers the vast majo…

Is a happy delusion preferable to a miserable reality? The App Store has become a virtual Truman Show. As long as you don't look beyond its simulated reality, it's a happy place. Developers have the perspective and ability to look behind the curtains. And what they find there is a truly miserable reality of unfair practices, deceptions, and even censorship. The philosophical answer to the question above has long been…

>Is a happy delusion preferable to a miserable reality?

Your miserable reality is one where:

* Nation-states have full access to location data to many Americans

* Ad companies abusing user data to push questionable products

* Moneyed interests spreading disinformation through hypertargetting.

This isn't hyperbole. Snowden already showed the length the USG was willing to go (1). Facebook is currently under fire for (2) and (3).

So yes, I'd gladly trade away my freedom in my pocket toy to ensure I retain my freedoms in my everyday life. If it's unfair that Epic has to charge a 30% markup on "v-bucks" so be it. The Developer complaints, deceptions and censorship have been so laughably elementary compared to the level abuse that Apple's wall garden prevents. It, again, shows the level blindness that utopians who can build from source have ignored.

If I cared about device freedom, there are plenty of phones on the market that provide that. However I have explicitly bought into Apple's platform in order to prevent developers from doing whatever they wish on my device.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#340

Post by hamilyon2 »

8ytecoder wrote: post #179
crazygringo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular No it doesn't. The app store is "popular" because Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it. I'm neither defending it or criticizing it... but let's not pretend like consumers are choosing the app store. Users in general are choosing Apple vs Android primarily for reasons that have nothing to do with an app store (i.e. hardware,…

Speak for yourself. I try to pay everything I can via the App Store subscriptions precisely because it’s easier to cancel. I made the mistake of subscribing to nytimes and I have to call them to cancel. That’s a major brand making me do this.

What a sad, truly medieval serf position are you living in. Paying one lord so that he protects you from other lords that have full power to rob you.

That is wrong, I can't state how wrong is that.

No commercial entity dares to charge my bank account in my country without my explicit approval. Actually, I believe they cannot.

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