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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#481
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

As a 24yo Indian guy living in the US, I find this comment very confusing.

How do I even find out what "caste" I'm in?

I've literally never heard that word used in a conversation with other Indian people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#482
post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

Everything you say rings very true to me. Most Indians are very reluctant to talk about this. Of several that became friends when I worked with a team in BLR, only one became close enough that we could discuss it. He himself was from one of the very highest sub-castes (which he taught me was trivially knowable from his surname) but very enlightened. I was shocked to discover that all but two or three out of about fif…

True story. I met this Indian woman while working out of the local hipster cafe. We had mutual friends. And ended up going out for lunch.

On the way back, she started asking questions about my background. They grew intensely personal. Until she was interrogating me on the sidewalk.

Unsatisfied with my responses, she just gave up and cut to the chase, "What's your mother's caste?"

Thanks to fairly unique circumstances I have to live with a plausible cover story. Because Indian people cannot stop asking questions. Where are you from? Where were you born? Why's your skin so pale? Why're you so tall? Where are your parents? What do they do? Where did you go to school? Why aren't you married?

What's worse is that the society is insular. Even in a big city, few people socialize outside of, in descending order of proximity, family > friends of the family > classmates from elementary school > people from their high school > college > (perhaps, sometimes) work.

I have met people who have gone through their entire life without ever meeting someone from a lower social class. Casual greetings with people who clean their homes don't count.

There's a lack of je ne sais quoi. A certain lack of creative energy. A kind of absence of the meeting of free radicals that sparks interesting ideas and art. Culturally, it's as if, the society has submerged itself in halon, determined to not let the sparks of creativity and genius spark.

This problem is so acute that every free radical I've met has done their very best to move away as soon as humanly possible.

I have no voice and yet I must scream

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#483
post #379
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody argues that tech is a meritocracy. Meritocracy is just an ideal, just like freedom, equality and defensive driving; it’s worth striving towards but you cannot ever reach it (and if you think you’ve reached it, you’ll inevitably start falling behind). Having said that, it’s one of the most meritocratic industries; do you know any billionaire doctors or lawyers that are college dropouts?

The relatively large number of tech billionaires – people with tens of thousands of times the median wealth – is a strange thing to use as an indicator of “meritocracy.”

That's exactly what we expect to see in a meritocratic system. Chess, poker and competitive gaming are almost completely meritocratic (especially poker) and we see the exact same distribution of outcomes.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#484

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

>> The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes.

No it does not. Caste based divisions existed for thousands of years before the reservation system. The reservation system tries to bring a fair competition between candidates who are from different caste backgrounds.

Think of it like the weight division of boxers. Saying a heavyweight boxer should not fight a lightweight boxer is not discriminating against the heavyweights. It is a mechanism to ensure the competition is fair. If we eliminate the weight divisions, the winners of the tournament are most likely to be from the heavier categories.

Before reservation, the castes who were only about 5% of the population were occupying more than 70% of the top jobs like judges, bureaucrats, academics etc. Reservation ensures that the lightweights fight among themselves and heavy weights fight among themselves and the there are winners from both the categories.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#485

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

> I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due to fact that they believe that one caste is superior to another, they are doing it because they are a…

>and this reads exactly like rich white conservatism in America

You are interpreting the parent comment as a moral defense of caste discrimination. I guess it is, but I think it says something valid about the causal roots of the situation, which needs to be understood even assuming you think it's bad and needs to be changed. How can it be changed otherwise?

If certain castes are subject to affirmative action in India, and not elsewhere, then they are inevitably going to go where things are relatively easier.

The justice of that affirmative action doesn't change the incentives. Anywhere you try to squeeze people, they will respond, creating a new "problem". What is the ultimate solution going to be?

I don't believe in free markets uber alles but I do believe in regulatory failure.

Talking about people "digging in their heels" makes for a picture of a world where everyone would "just be reasonable" that's tantalizingly close to reality.

But people are never going to just give up on choosing the best available opportunity they have, at least on average.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#486
post #92

The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness. They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to b…

> The lack of self awareness... They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own... live in their own bubble not even realizing the privilege they are born with.

So... pretty much like most Americans in similar situation, then?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#487
post #444
post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relatively large number of tech billionaires – people with tens of thousands of times the median wealth – is a strange thing to use as an indicator of “meritocracy.”

Actually, one of the main criticism of meritocracy (as in, the social structure that we (the Western civilisation) strive to have, not the stupid "it's not actually a meritocracy" argument) is that, combined with assortative mating, it would eventually result in incredibly unequal society, with high-IQ genes becoming increasingly concentrated.

Precisely, especially when intelligence gives the user so much more leverage nowadays (through tech and capital) than it did in the past, a Pareto distribution is exactly what we expect to see in a meritocratic system

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#488
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

https://admission.aglasem.com/jee-main-cut-offs/

Category JEE Main 2019 Cut Off Common Rank List 89.7548849 Gen EWS 78.2174869 OBC NCL 74.3166557 SC 54.0128155 ST 44.3345172 PWD 0.11371730

Common Rank List = Upper caste SC/ST = lower caste

90 vs 44/54.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#489
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

I once asked a co-worker if he felt caste ever impacted him in any way. He said well when I went to the local visa office in India the officer behind the desk approving visas had a certain surname. Only 25 people a day are approved for a Visa and except for me, everyone else in the room had that officer's surname.

> Only 25 people a day are approved for a Visa and except for me, everyone else in the room had that officer's surname.

How did you know the surnames of all the other people in the room?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#490
post #469
post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

> 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) Of course Reservation IS the problem if you're unfortunate to be an upper caste. The problem is that a caste-based reservation did NOT eliminate caste-based bias, it amplified it. More and more castes, outside the original designation, demanded it in exchange for votes, and more and more upper caste Indians felt cheated as they lost limited opportunities that should…

I have seen this sentiment being reflected by many people (in one extreme case someone called that they were being persecuted by the government). Indian caste system is an unfair oppressive system put together to maintain the hierarchical advantage. Reparations/interventions were needed to bridge the gap, if not the unfairness would be much more rampant.

Not sure about IITs, I went to one of the top NITs and thats definitely not the case with people not being able graduate in 4 years. I have personally seen examples of people completely uplifting their family from poverty by the chance they have gotten via reservation.

Disclaimer: I am neither upper caste nor lower, somewhere in the middle, I guess and have not been positively or adversely impacted because of my caste.

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