Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians • Hacker News Board

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#451

Post by fakedang » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #398

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

> Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. What kinds of things do they say, or how does their speaking change once they learn? I'm totally outside of this culture but have been studying caste discrimination and its history lately and have been trying to learn all I can about it.

They'll sneak in the odd question here and there. Maybe they'll find out from the surname, or perhaps the locality of the town/city you're from in India, or the kind of food you eat (upper-castes are mainly vegetarian), or your dialect. Heck sometimes the deity you worship will reveal one's caste.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#452

Post by webmobdev » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

fhood wrote: post #436

shuckles wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Caste is a huge problem. To substantiate this, let me tell you about the story of a person who didn’t seem to care about caste at all, but later decided to not marry someone over it.” That is not a story which substantiates the claim that caste is a huge problem. I agree that someone who made a marriage decision based on caste isn’t someone I’d want to marry in the first place. My comment about power imbalances can…

I don't understand how a person could manage to only care about "caste" when getting married and never care about it any other time. Maybe I just don't understand what you were trying to get at with your original comment, because the statement doesn't really make any sense to me either.

Not OP - every caste has its own unique cultural aspects. So a person could disregard caste in most avenues of life, but still give it a thought while considering a prospective spouse to find an affinity through shared cultural values. That's one reason that came to mind.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#453

Post by acituan » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 10:58 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #401

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)

> A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-) Maybe in France, I don't know about that. But from what I've learned about the caste system, it's nothing like the class system in the US. Sure, the US class system is (statistically speaking) heritable, but it doesn't follow you around for life, tied to your surname, determining who you can marry or what jobs you're allowed to get, or if yo…

> but it doesn't follow you around for life, tied to your surname, determining who you can marry or what jobs you're allowed to get, or if you'll get beaten simply for walking into certain buildings or touching strangers

I am glad you’ve enumerated all those aspects because class definitely follows most Americans around, tied to their FICO score, their debt, their education credentials therefore the jobs they can get into, their neighborhood therefore surrounding crime levels, law enforcement and justice system attitude towards them, incarceration rates etc. It even determines who they can marry based on their gender (e.g statistically men don’t get to marry “up”).

We don’t like to call it caste because it probably offends some sensibilities, but class is definitely sticky in the US.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#454

Post by fakedang » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 10:59 PM UTC

fwiwm2c wrote: post #380

lowend wrote: post #214

ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…

Don't generalize. Give strong arguments vs. only relaying your own experience. Otherwise, you are falling into a trap you yourself laid out in point #3 yourself. Question is whether most Indians who come to US for work are actually upper class Indians already and thus this 90% number is what it is. Or do lower class Indians also come to US, face discrimination and thus either go back or struggle to find work. If the…

If you had seen the recent CISCO case, then you'd know it is definitely the latter.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#455

Post by 0x6862 » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

ben_e wrote: post #431

tw600040 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. So who should win the 100 m olympics? someone who is fastest or someone who was discriminated against? Which team should win the football match? the team that scores the most points or should the background of the players be a criteria?

Education isn’t a zero sum game.

University admission is for those on the margin, since the positions are limited

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#456

Post by throwaway987978 » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 11:03 PM UTC

hawk_ wrote: post #377

anonymousJim12 wrote: post #354

I'm not sure if this will be seen but I'm very curious to hear from Indian folk: I am the hiring manager at a well known software company that employs a lot of Indians on H1B visas. A while back I brought in an Indian person for a full round interview. This person happen to have pretty dark skin. On the interview team was a light skinned Indian person with a very Brahmin last name that I'd say is pretty average techn…

I know this is a caste thread, but there might be a more general issue at play here - a mediocre person may not be able to recognize a talented person, a good solution or a good design. Not putting mediocre people on interview panels would be way higher on my list before getting to cultural or discrimination issues. I am almost inclined to bet that more talented people are less likely to discriminate anyway based on…

A mediocre person may also be threatened by someone they see as being more talented. They will fight against having that person on their team with them because it makes them look worse.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#457

Post by raincom » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

pringles_red wrote: post #104

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

Well, my classmates became army soldiers instead of class teachers because they belong to 'upper castes'. Even though they got better marks in second grade teachers' recruitment, than those from many reserved categories, they couldn't get a teacher job.

From rationality and morality perspective, see this piece on reservations: https://www.hipkapi.com/2015/09/10/indian-view-from-outside-...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#458

Post by neeleshs » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 11:08 PM UTC

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

If any Indian (regardless of their caste) finds caste discrimination as bizarre, I don't know what world they live in. It is a fact. I am upper caste by birth, but means zilch to me.(Doesn't mean anything in the larger context, but saying it anyway). I cannot speak for most upper caste folks,I have no statistics to tell one way or the other. It's all personal experience or anecdotal.

But, I have seen shit happen in front my eyes, in my own home , in many many conversations. Anyone who is "upper caste" and says this is not real, have buried their sand in the head.

Discrimination in India is rampant, and on different dimensions. religion, caste, language, nationality (Don't get me started on how locals treated a few African students in my college back in India), skin color, financial status - the list goes on. But religion & caste take the crown.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#459

Post by therealdrag0 » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #288

sharadov wrote: post #281

Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfill…

These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

Another one but with Ezra Klein hosting: https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21399479/caste-the-warmth-of-o...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#460

Post by jefftk » Tue, Sep 22, 2020, 11:13 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #450

jefftk wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the case of race in the US. Some of the benefit of affirmative action goes to children from well off black families. That doesn't mean it's corrupt, it just means that if you are doing something on the basis of race and not wealth then you're sometimes going to give a benefit to people who are rich. If you took your last paragraph, and substituted racial groups for castes, I think it would be clear that it d…

The big question is: are they privileged, or are they discriminated against? I've heard of rich black people in the US getting stopped and investigated by the police for driving a fancy car that they bought with their own money. There's different kinds of privilege of course. You can be rich but still discriminated, you can be white but poor. And the way you need to help people who are poor is different from the way…

Affirmative action is not generally about giving people money, it's about giving people opportunities. The idea is something like, you set a lower bar for people from groups that have been historically discriminated against.

When we have programs that are specifically designed to help people monetarily, such as financial aid at colleges or welfare, they consider people's economic situation but not their race.