Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US.
The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes.
When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfilled seats.
A friend who belonged to a lower caste ( got a rank of 25000 in the entrance exam and breezed into a top engineering school), while another guy from an upper caste who got a rank of 5000, basically was rejected. You pretty much had to get a rank under 3000 if you were from an upper caste to get an admit to any engineering school.
Not everyone who is upper case in India is rich, in fact the Brahmins are mostly lower - middle class. To be poor and Brahmin is like getting doubly screwed.
The reservation system does not stop at education, you have it in public sector jobs.
Merit took a big hit, people who were unqualified started making their way into education and jobs.
It's a good idea taken to an extreme.
A lot of these "Brahmins" are butt-hurt because of this, but hey, you are in the US now, leave that feudal thinking behind.
Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#282ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…
I am not from an upper caste either, but my experience doesn't match with yours at all. My peer group is less culturally Indian than others, but I wonder if experiences such as yours are more pronounced in certain regions or groups, more than others.
I have never once been asked my caste, and I have never once seen my friends be asked their castes. But, I realize that being middle class in an Indian metro city already puts me in the 10% class of India that is somewhat shielded from this stuff. I also know that caste becomes a huge thing during marriages and dating. But, I haven't seen much of it in tech. It is far more prevalent in careers where you need communication with under-skilled workers (mechE, civilE), since these workers stick by castes quite closely.
> My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards
Would you be willing to tell me what university this was. I can't imagine this being the case in any metro city in India.
I won't call you a liar, but this is the first I hear of it and the burden of evidence is on you.
> I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste"
Oh yeah, I am too, and I can completely empathize with this people making this assumption. Although, it has been more commonly used in situations where it is used as a way to say "you do not understand the problems of lower caste / dark skinned people in India" than anything else.
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Caste based discrimination is a huge problem in India, especially in non-metro India. But, my 2 cents, I have yet to notice any in my time in Tech in the US. ( I did go to a university/location with low south Asian%, but my peer groups in university were very Indian, as are most masters programs, but YMMV)
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please reference the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Accusing someone of lying violates several of them.
But it IS a blatant lie. If the OP can provide any evidence of a student's caste listed on a notice board in a college, I'll eat my hat.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but, consider the possibility that it's rare, maybe even unique, but real. If that's the case, you've never seen it because it's rare.
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
As a New Analyst, I've seen this with Westerners also (nothing to do with "caste" in the specific sense), trying to boss around others and assert dominance based on their University or assumed better training. I think it happens in a lot of circumstances, even if there isnt a name for it in the West.
There is often a subtle difference: westerners are generally able to understand the situation and decide if they are inferior or note on a case by case basis. When my boss asserts authority that is different from the guy in the desk next to me, and I will react differently. Note that women have just won that position, and often will not fight for their rights like "they should". Also black people may have issues that…
> westerners are generally able to understand the situation and decide if they are inferior or note on a case by case basis.
The scores of westerners who go to 3rd world countries to volunteer at activities they have no prior experience in says otherwise and think they are helping the "poor native people" says otherwise.
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
right but thats not the same as selecting for IQ. thats not even getting into the fact that genetics << environmental effects for predicting IQ..
From Wikipedia: Twin studies of adult individuals have found a heritability of IQ between 57% and 73%[6] with the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80%[7] IQ goes from being weakly correlated with genetics, for children, to being strongly correlated with genetics for late teens and adults.
And yet in the past 100 years or so IQ has increased across the board by 30 points, so culture can explain up to 98% of IQ variation.
Therefore this might be the case that genetics is a proxy for the culture or mindset or environment that have a large effect on IQ.
This is why such statements can be very misleading.
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would you say that? Would you imagine separate hospital rooms based on religion? It happened couple of months ago. https://scroll.in/latest/959274/covid-19-separate-wards-for-... If they are not allowed to live in the same quarter and be in the same hospital rooms, it is not hard to imagine segregation in universities too. https://www.economist.com/asia/2020/07/23/even-as-india-urba... It is not fair to call some…
I'm calling them a liar, because they ARE lying. I have had 7 years of college in India and not even once seen a students caste listed on any notice board. What i HAVE seen is their "quota", and there are many quotas: caste based, sports quota (for athletes), freedom fighter quota etc.
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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#287The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness. They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to b…
This is true for most countries, how many developers do you know that come from real poor families? In my experience most had it pretty good, that's why they had a computer and maybe internet growing up, and time to play with it, and time to study instead of working to support yourself and the family.
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#288Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfill…
These same arguments are made about race in the US too.
In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues.
I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#289For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…
> For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. A little bit like the class system in the United States (or France) eh :-)
There is a VEEY well reviewed book called Caste that talks about USA, India and South Africa. It is next on my reading list.
Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians
#290ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't…
I don’t have any expertise here, but “no it’s not” is not an argument, regardless of how loud you say it.