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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#341

Post by Loughla »

dudul wrote: post #291
Loughla wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted - maybe it's the flippant response? The message is correct, though. The caste system in India sounds exactly like the class system in the US, only more formalized. In my area, there absolutely are surnames that you can associate with 'those' people, and who are, in my experience, passed over for jobs. Maybe it's my ignorance, but doesn't a caste system whereby you are exposed t…

I wouldn't say it sounds "exactly" like they are the same. At least in theory, your income reflects your work and is not set for life, while a "caste system" is usually unescapable. And yes, of course being born in a wealthy family gives you privileges but I don't see anything wrong with people working hard to provide for their descendants. I understand that it breaks down in practice where wealth attracts wealth, bu…

I absolutely would call them the same. What is different in a caste system you are born into that provides privilege for some, but lack of resources to another and a class system that provides wealth and privilege for some, but lack of resources beginning at birth for others?

When education from an early age is funded via property taxes (as much of the US is), we are baking in the inequality. If you come from a wealthy neighborhood, your kids have access to resources. If you come from a poor area, your kids have no access to those resources.

If your parents are wealthy professionals, they can provide for you while you work unpaid internships or provide you with connections to college friends to start your career. If your parents are laborers or lower classes, they can't even take time off to come to your graduation. (I know that second one is a bit dramatic, but you get the idea).

In the US, much 'in-group' signaling is based around sports and hobbies that require both time and money. If you didn't play sports as a kid, you're questioned. If you don't have the 'cool clothes' or 'cool car' you're questioned. All of these are class related.

How is this different? Other than being 'formal', honestly, what is the difference between caste system and the very overt class system in the US? That's not a snide question, that's a real question. Where are the differences?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#342

Post by throw1234651234 »

Loughla wrote: post #262
cvhashim wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I scoff and roll my eyes at individuals who argue that tech is a meritocracy when discrimination between countrymen is happening even in companies like Google.

From what I can tell, tech IS a meritocracy. As long as you have the money and/or connections to get into the tech scene.

It almost has to be - there is no other field where you can make your skills or inability apparent within the first 2 days on the job.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#343

Post by tt433 »

sudosysgen wrote: post #275
neilk wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's surprising to you because North Americans have gotten used to saying "people of color" as if they were all united. Upper-caste Indians basically see themselves as people on top of the racial hierarchy. In many ways they identify far more strongly with British or American elites than with Dalits.

An amazingly astute trick by the British.

Replicated across the Empire, divide and conquer, or co-opt and exploit

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#344

Post by User23 »

screye wrote: post #297
eqtn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the previous discussions some has mentioned that they converted to a different religion

Both Christianity and Islam observe upper and lower castes in India. What's worse is the discrimination they face sees almost no recognition, since on paper neither of those religions acknowledge caste. A short look - https://theprint.in/opinion/indias-muslim-community-under-a-... > 85% of the Muslim representatives in the Parliamentary House are from the 15% (ashraf) upper caste. (PARETO!) A detailed look at it - ht…

Christianity in India has a fascinating history. The first were converted by Saint Thomas the Apostle personally. And then Christian missionaries were part of the much more recent European contact. I’m no expert on the subject, but I’d wager how Christians in India see caste depends on their particular heritage.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#345

Post by guerrilla »

tomp wrote: post #295
cvhashim wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I scoff and roll my eyes at individuals who argue that tech is a meritocracy when discrimination between countrymen is happening even in companies like Google.

Nobody argues that tech is a meritocracy. Meritocracy is just an ideal, just like freedom, equality and defensive driving; it’s worth striving towards but you cannot ever reach it (and if you think you’ve reached it, you’ll inevitably start falling behind). Having said that, it’s one of the most meritocratic industries; do you know any billionaire doctors or lawyers that are college dropouts?

> Nobody argues that tech is a meritocracy.

Yes they do, constantly. Pay attention. Even sibling comments here are doing it.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#346

Post by Loughla »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #342
Loughla wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell, tech IS a meritocracy. As long as you have the money and/or connections to get into the tech scene.

It almost has to be - there is no other field where you can make your skills or inability apparent within the first 2 days on the job.

I think you missed my point.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#347

Post by bluGill »

currymj wrote: post #337
bluGill wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. The slave class in the US was in theory gone by 1870 (I don't care to look up the end of the civil war. 150 years latter a lot of people still know who is a descendant of that class. Somehow, something, fueled that through several generations.

a lot of this was legally enforced until the 1970s. see e.g. the Racial Integrity Act in Virginia for one example. the state had a legally-codified definition of race ("one-drop rule") and put a lot of bureaucratic effort into keeping records of everyone's race, so that they could enforce segregation and bans on interracial marriage. if Reconstruction had succeeded and Jim Crow had never happened, who knows what the…

Not everywhere though. Northern states didn't have nearly as much, but even in middle of nowhere small towns where no blacks even live people still know about it.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#348

Post by vbezhenar »

zarkov99 wrote: post #299
Loughla wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implication is that, inherently, higher caste individuals were more gifted than lower castes, and that breeding over the years selected for those traits. You're confusing inherent trait with sociologically applied traits. In other words, there is no reason to assume there would be selective reproduction for ANY single trait in any of the castes, because your birth into those castes is random and meaningless. Unle…

I am not an evolutionary biologist so please excuse and correct any mistakes if you can. Lets assume there are some physical differences between the castes. These differences would have been brought into existence because at some point the respective populations were isolated and living under different sets of evolutionary pressures. If, over time, you remove physical isolation but replace it with cultural taboos aga…

It could work if smart people from lower casts were moved to higher casts and stupid people from higher casts were moved to lower casts. Ideally children would have to be cast-less and then at some age (before reproductive age) were promoted to one of the casts according to some intellectual test. And breeding would be allowed only between species of the same cast.

If I'm not mistaken, Indian casts do not work this way, so I don't think that it's possible to select anything.

I'm not even sure that intellect is affected by genes.

Of course this is all eugenics and considered inappropriate even to discuss in west.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#349

Post by sudoaza »

heavyset_go wrote: post #321
sudoaza wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true for most countries, how many developers do you know that come from real poor families? In my experience most had it pretty good, that's why they had a computer and maybe internet growing up, and time to play with it, and time to study instead of working to support yourself and the family.

We exist. I was lucky enough to have a parent who bought a second-hand computer after years of asking for one, and not being able to afford it. They were relatively expensive then, so it was a real sacrifice that I'm still grateful for to this day. One of the things I've learned is that if you don't use euphemisms to minimize the poverty that you came from, some people treat you differently when they understand what…

Yes I'm sure there's some like you, I remember reading that social mobility from the lower income third to the higher third is around 6% in the US.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#350

Post by auganov »

mrweasel wrote: post #163
nandhinianand wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a friend whose parents converted to christianity, and so my friend grew up christian. But guess what, the first time I met my friends' mom(at his wedding), the first question she asked after verifying native state(TamilNadu) was which caste I belonged to. (And yeah just to be clear, she asked which caste I'm from, and she/they're from xxx caste). So no caste is not something people escape from converting relig…

I’m sorry but I’m completely facinated. What do you suppose would happen if your answer was something like: “Oh, we don’t believe in castes” or “I’m not in any caste”. I assume they’d just assume the “worst”.

I'm guessing people will go with the highest probability guess. It's like when people ask about religion. Most won't take "I have no religion" for an answer if you're from a country/place where that's uncommon. They will still try to assume your family background unless you elaborate.
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