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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#301

Post by sharadov »

gonehome wrote: post #288
sharadov wrote: post #281

Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfill…

These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...

Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#302

Post by notacoward »

zp33 wrote: post #279
notacoward wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Affirmative action is always bad. I disagree. I grew up poor and white, I was the "victim" of AA once, I come from exactly the demographic that racist demagogues play to, and I still disagree. Just as the original systemic discrimination has uneven effect (on both sides), so does AA. The beneficiaries of AA as it has existed in the US are not particularly likely to be privileged. In fact it really is a bit of the o…

Its a good thing you didn't grow up poor and asian - then you would have had to work even harder with even less privelege

That's exactly the problem affirmative action is supposed to address. That's exactly why I support it, even though it wasn't in my own interest back then. So what's your point here? Do you support AA, or oppose it? The "point" that discrimination already exists was not in dispute.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#303

Post by specialp »

Just for some clarification: What percentage of Indians are "upper caste"? What exactly is the cut off for being lower caste vs upper? I know this article says 90% of Indian US tech workers are upper caste but what is their representation as a whole in Indian population?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#304

Post by mabbo »

At no point do they say "Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit". That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don't.

> "Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all," the company said in a statement to online news site thewire.

> "We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this case dating back to 2016, and have determined we were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies. Cisco will vigorously defend itself against the allegations made in this complaint." (emphasis mine).

We're inclusive! You can tell, because nothing we did was strictly illegal! And nothing violated any of our policies, which don't cover discrimination by caste!

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#305

Post by tomp »

bluGill wrote: post #237
x3ro wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fairly terrible take for a number of reasons, but let's assume good faith and indulge this. * What makes you think that, at any point, lower caste people had an on-average lower IQ? The same has been said for plenty of minorities that have been historically discriminated against, such as people of color and women, because opressors are in control of the narrative and see themselves as superior * What does "…

It is possible that higher casts selected for intelligence over the years. Since in India arranged marriage is the norm, parents can select for intelligence if that is a trait they care about. If there is a genetic portion of intelligence that can be selected for. Note the above uses words like "possible" and "if". I find it unlikely this is what was done. More likely - like every other society - they selected for po…

This is just an argument for IQ selection; applies equally to each caste as to humanity as a whole. But why would higher castes be more IQ selective than lower castes?

Edit: anyone mind telling me why this comment is flagged? Did I say anything controversial?

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#306

Post by dcolkitt »

barry-cotter wrote: post #102
jerzyt wrote: post #45

What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the co…

> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy o…

I think a counterpoint to this view is that Englishmen with Norman last names still make more money than average.[1] Despite the fact that the British regime hasn't discriminated along the Norman-Saxon divide since the 1300s.

I doubt if the average English person today is really even consciously aware of the Anglo-Normans being higher class. Certainly there's no easily visible divide or overt discrimination in modern times. Yet the legacy of the caste system left by William the Conqueror continues to shape society a thousand years later.

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/842...

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#307

Post by Florin_Andrei »

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

As someone who grew up in a different culture (so I look at the system as an outsider - I grew up in the EU, I live in the US, and a lot of my coworkers are Indian), the influence of something like a caste system is quite visible in many people who grew up in India. It's vague and sometimes barely-there, but definitely there quite a lot.

It's a set of assumptions: that someone's pigeonhole in the social structure somehow strongly defines the limits of their abilities; that in the org chart, wisdom always flows top to bottom, never the other way around; that the org chart itself is (and indeed MUST BE) set in stone; etc.

The system feels very rigid, especially for someone who grew up in an individualistic culture.

This is not about conscious, deliberate actions, it's about unconscious attitudes and assumptions.

I do not see any of this in people of Indian descent who grew up here. It's also much less typical of young people with a progressive mindset who grew up in India. But older folks and/or more conservative - yeah, it's clearly there.

I could be wrong, but I feel - the moment India is able to jettison this pattern, the whole country will experience some sort of major renaissance.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#309

Post by sulam »

secondcoming wrote: post #269
cvhashim wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I scoff and roll my eyes at individuals who argue that tech is a meritocracy when discrimination between countrymen is happening even in companies like Google.

But don't candidates for Google jobs have to jump through several tedious rounds of interview? How likely is it that there's going to be a snobby Indian in each of those rounds who gets to veto a candidate?

At Google you get interviewed (usually only one round with multiple people in it) and then your interview feedback goes to a hiring committee and they make the decision.

Could the hiring committee identify you as UC? Quite likely based on surname, but I don't know if they see a surname.

Also, in the article, the discrimination happened after someone was hired. Promotions (Google again uses a committee system here), project assignments, etc can all be influenced in a way that is impossible for you to "hide" who you are.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#310

Post by HenryBemis »

ponker wrote: post #293
zapdrive wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm calling them a liar, because they ARE lying. I have had 7 years of college in India and not even once seen a students caste listed on any notice board. What i HAVE seen is their "quota", and there are many quotas: caste based, sports quota (for athletes), freedom fighter quota etc.

I have been on this earth for 40 years and I’ve visited 30+ countries and not once, NOT ONCE, have I ever seen a woodpecker. David Attenborough is lying.

I was walking on a forest in Eastern Europe a few months ago, and in a 10km walk I saw 5-6 of them. It was fantastic viewing and sound!
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