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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

zdnet.com

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#131

Post by GuB-42 »

Just looking at the numbers, that 90% of Indian techies are upper-caste is not that bad.

According to the article the lower caste makes up 25% of the population, so presumably, 75% are upper caste. It means someone upper caste is 3 times more likely to be a techie compared to lower caste.

By comparison, a man is 4 times more likely to be in tech than a woman, and asians in the US are 10 more times more likely to be in tech than whites and 30 times more likely than blacks!

So there is certainly a gap, but a surprisingly small one considering the difference in status and presumably wealth and education.

Of course, it doesn't excuse the caste system, and especially not the difference in treatment at the workplace.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#132

Post by buran77 »

mcv wrote: post #129
buran77 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw the situation a bit differently, the upper caste guys would have no problem working with the lower caste ones simply because this meant they never had to work. They would pawn off all the work on the others and order them around. And if I tried to force any work on them it just backfired since they just shoved it down the throats of their "slaves". Even trying to embarrass them in a meeting didn't work. With al…

Might have been that the situation at my dad's work was actually similar. But if that's their attitude, it still makes me wonder why anyone would hire them. Doesn't this attitude basically make them useless to their employer? As an employer, would you promote the guy who did all the work or the guy who did nothing while taking all the credit?

They aren't stupid or lazy, they're just raised with the (mistaken) impression that they're better than everyone else. But they are capable of working, just not doing the same jobs as the lower castes. So they're hired to be the leadership layer.

Outside of India they're hired because they do have good qualifications, or because they come with a strong recommendation and connections. And again, they're not incapable of doing their jobs just don;t expect them to do "low end" jobs.

And another surprising fact, when I was working together just with someone from a higher caste he would have the same attitude around me that the lower caste guys had around him. So even if in a top caste they'd concede that "the white man is superior". And while I appreciate the conviction they put in the whole class system to the point where they will accept me as being superior based purely on the color of my skin, I still found the whole thing disgusting.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#133

Post by notacoward »

_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

Everything you say rings very true to me. Most Indians are very reluctant to talk about this. Of several that became friends when I worked with a team in BLR, only one became close enough that we could discuss it. He himself was from one of the very highest sub-castes (which he taught me was trivially knowable from his surname) but very enlightened. I was shocked to discover that all but two or three out of about fifty colleagues were Brahmin[1]. It explained a lot of the dynamics I had already observed, like why one of the best engineers in the place had never been promoted or why some of them literally wouldn't even talk to another. Caste, especially Dalit vs. everyone else, still seems to be very much a thing. But, as you say, nobody wants to discuss it.

[1] That's the word he used. It might well have been shorthand for a more complex concept that he knew I wouldn't understand.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#134

Post by nicoburns »

BigJono wrote: post #112
nicoburns wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not even sure I can think of a fair way to level this. The only way is to reduce the pre-existing wealth inequality. Which is why a lot of people are in favour of strongly progressive taxation.

That's not necessarily the only way. Another way would be if the market was in a state where the EV of starting a company was roughly the same as the EV of working for someone else. People living cheque to cheque would still have less options, but they wouldn't be inherently worse, and over time inequality would stabilize instead of compounding (which I suspect is what is happening currently). I don't actually think…

> over time inequality would stabilize instead of compounding (which I suspect is what is happening currently).

You really think inequality is stablizing instead of compounding at the moment? Wealth ratios between highest and lowest have gone through the roof over the last 50 years.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#135

Post by Cantbekhan »

I strongly recommend this recent movie https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7142506/ which gives what IMHO seems like quite a realistic view on that topic (and no, it's definitely not the cliché Bollywood movie full of dancing, don't be fooled by any trailer).

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#136

Post by someonenice »

higerordermap wrote: post #115
pringles_red wrote: post #104

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

This. I think US people see caste system as something like skin color based racism in west. Actually it is much more complicated than that. I know people from upper castes who were actually middle class farmers, and those from lower castes that got benefit from quotas even if they were rich[0]. Affirmative action is always bad. Because the people getting benefit of it are likely to be privileged. In this particular l…

The upper castes are hardly 20% of the population. But they take up 80% or more of the higher education and jobs already.

The affirmative action in India is to reduce this gap so that their representation is comparable to their population.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#137

Post by notacoward »

higerordermap wrote: post #115
pringles_red wrote: post #104

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

This. I think US people see caste system as something like skin color based racism in west. Actually it is much more complicated than that. I know people from upper castes who were actually middle class farmers, and those from lower castes that got benefit from quotas even if they were rich[0]. Affirmative action is always bad. Because the people getting benefit of it are likely to be privileged. In this particular l…

> Affirmative action is always bad.

I disagree. I grew up poor and white, I was the "victim" of AA once, I come from exactly the demographic that racist demagogues play to, and I still disagree. Just as the original systemic discrimination has uneven effect (on both sides), so does AA. The beneficiaries of AA as it has existed in the US are not particularly likely to be privileged. In fact it really is a bit of the opposite, because it's much easier to skirt AA in professions requiring high levels of education and specialization. It mostly has its effect at the lower end of the economic spectrum, in jobs that even those who have been shortchanged by the educational system can do.

Do some rich minorities benefit from AA? Do some poor white people get the shaft as a result? Oh, I do know about that, and it sucks mightily. From what I can tell it's quite possible that India's reservation system is even worse. But that doesn't mean AA must fail. Flaws in a specific implementation of an idea do not necessarily refute the idea itself. The US version of AA, for all its many and great flaws, still seems net positive and a valid part of addressing systemic discrimination.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#139

Post by collyw »

mcv wrote: post #128
DarkWiiPlayer wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that mean he just had more money than he was dumb enough to lose at the time?

He also has the name, connections and status that help him get more money. Despite his bankruptcies, there are still people willing to do business with him, invest in his projects, etc. At the moment he's probably mostly propped up by Russian money, but those Russians would not do that for just any bum on the streets.

Given that his businesses seem to be successful now, those seem to have been good investments.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#140

Post by _jgdh »

notacoward wrote: post #133
_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

Everything you say rings very true to me. Most Indians are very reluctant to talk about this. Of several that became friends when I worked with a team in BLR, only one became close enough that we could discuss it. He himself was from one of the very highest sub-castes (which he taught me was trivially knowable from his surname) but very enlightened. I was shocked to discover that all but two or three out of about fif…

I've never had any trouble discussing this with European and American colleagues or owning up to my own privilege.

But I can see how many Indians would find it awkward to talk about, especially if they think that the caste system is on it's way out because things are better than they used to be. Some might feel that discussing it with non-Indians puts India in a bad light.

To which I say, it's not me who's painting India in a bad light, it's the people who are discriminating on the basis of caste in 2020. People who say "oh, I'm only against reservation and those who benefit from it" and treat such people terribly. And we can only get rid of this disease by shining a light on it.

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