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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

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Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#111

Post by buran77 »

mcv wrote: post #103

My dad recently told me how during the 1980s they had two Indians working together on a project. Turns out one of them was upper-caste, and the other lower-caste, and the upper-caste basically refused. Was impossible to work with, because he was offended that he had to work with a lower-caste person. If this attitude discrimination of Dalits by upper-castes is really so common in non-Indian companies, it sounds like…

I saw the situation a bit differently, the upper caste guys would have no problem working with the lower caste ones simply because this meant they never had to work. They would pawn off all the work on the others and order them around. And if I tried to force any work on them it just backfired since they just shoved it down the throats of their "slaves".

Even trying to embarrass them in a meeting didn't work. With all eyes on them they would just look at me with a look of mild surprise. They simply (and sincerely) could not acknowledge why someone would phrase as a criticism something that for them is so naturally correct. For them it looked like criticizing a farmer for using work horses. I found this as some of the most disgusting behavior I have ever witnessed in a place of work.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#112

Post by BigJono »

nicoburns wrote: post #74
goldcd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always thought it's that last point you touch on, that's most important. There are mechanisms (and we can discuss their effectiveness) that try to balance the playing field in provision of opportunity - but there's a huge gap in "provision to cope with failure" e.g. Two people graduate with equal abilities and are offered an opportunity to found a start-up. One of those people knows his parents can cover rent/fo…

> I'm not even sure I can think of a fair way to level this. The only way is to reduce the pre-existing wealth inequality. Which is why a lot of people are in favour of strongly progressive taxation.

That's not necessarily the only way. Another way would be if the market was in a state where the EV of starting a company was roughly the same as the EV of working for someone else. People living cheque to cheque would still have less options, but they wouldn't be inherently worse, and over time inequality would stabilize instead of compounding (which I suspect is what is happening currently).

I don't actually think this is a better solution than progressive taxation and decent welfare though (and I'd also have no idea how you'd coax the market in that direction anyway), because it doesn't also solve the problem of the economy losing out on potential successful businesses because their owners weren't wealthy enough to start them.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#114

Post by anu7df »

Ok.. I am going to be brave and not going to use a throwaway. I find it perplexing that HN crowd who is usually arguing for a balanced analysis and seeing both viewpoints is suddenly behaving as if this data proves some injustice is currently happening in India as well as US (in the context of Indian caste system). To be clear, India has/had a caste system that was extremely oppressive. Currently though, the social aspects aside, economically and crucially educationally, the "lower castes", have an advantage due to a system of reservations - affirmative action on steroids. I am not going to argue one way or the other as to whether the idea or the implementation of such an affirmative action policy is fair or net positive. It probably still is in principle, but in practice the people who seem to benefit from this, in my experience, are very rich "lower caste" families. More things to say here, but I don't want to digress. The law suit in the story has to do with IIT. So let's take that specifically. IIT is extremely competitive to get into. It is even more competitive once you are in. It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Call it a difference grit/talent/smartness whatever. This causes a some of them to disengage from studies altogether. Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. The lawsuit and the accusations of casteism has to be now taken with a huge pinch of salt. To be clear, I don't know if any of the accusations in that lawsuit are true or not. But I do know that every middle class parent (including mine) drills into their kids the idea that you have to work freaking hard at studies to "get some where". Everything about that 90 percent statistic can be explained through economics (already rich with all its advantages) or through desperation (high caste+ poor => no chance except if you work really hard). Of course I knew a few so called "lower caste" people in IIT who got in through the "general category" ie purely on merit. They were just as good as anybody there and are also doing well in the tech scene in US. edit: Added the below sentence.

The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence by taking advantage of the BLM and current sentiments.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#115

Post by higerordermap »

pringles_red wrote: post #104

I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due…

This. I think US people see caste system as something like skin color based racism in west. Actually it is much more complicated than that.

I know people from upper castes who were actually middle class farmers, and those from lower castes that got benefit from quotas even if they were rich[0].

Affirmative action is always bad. Because the people getting benefit of it are likely to be privileged. In this particular lawsuit, the discriminated was mentioned to be an IIT alumnus. It is basically hard to get into an IIT without decent investment in study materials / training to pass entrance exams these days. But still most of the seats are reserved for SC/ST/OBC and availed by people who are rich.

After reading this, some so called Indian liberals jump in to defend this is never the case. Go to an IIT and check the list of students who got in due to affirmative action (called reservation here). You will find most of them having wealthy parents because most students who write IIT entrance exams take coaching[1], and that's quite expensive.

Some media likes to highlight this or this may even give impression that upper caste Indians are casteist. They are not. But they are likely fed up with the abomination that reservations (affirmative actions) are.

Apart from that, there is likely chances of nepotism in bureaucratic organizations like Cisco.

Also, as for as I know, the caste system alone doesn't explain why South Indian upper caste people are more successful than North Indian upper castes (Brahmins / Baniyas) who outnumber them easily, and also appear more in IITs/NITs.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#116

Post by barry-cotter »

teekert wrote: post #58

So... They nicely fit in with the upper-caste Americans. As long as you have a system where you make some "upper-caste" universities so expensive that only upper-caste people can attend them, you will keep the caste system alive. This is why education should not be privatized, there are no equal opportunities within the US as well as in India. It's all about what family you are born into. The whole caste system is al…

Class isn’t caste though they overlap. Caste is unique to the Indian subcontinent as far as I’m aware. It is utterly unremarkable for there to be people of different castes living in the same village whose ancestors have lived in the same area for generations who are as genetically distinct as Swedes and Sardinians. The only thing remotely similar I’m aware of was the Manchu in China. Caste is about maintaining endogamy for over 1,000 years with an average generation having zero out of caste inflow of genes.

If you try to understand caste by analogy to class you will fail completely. It is its own thing.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#117

Post by fmajid »

raxxorrax wrote: post #110
_jgdh wrote: post #80

For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefo…

I don't think it prudent to replicate it in nations with no connection to Hinduism. Your strategy would reinforce the awareness of caste status. I don't think non-Indians would even be able to discriminate by caste. Discrimination against Indians is perfectly possible of course.

There is a strong racial component to the caste system, and thus it would fall within a protected category. A company would open itself up to liability if it willfully ignored the problem.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#118

Post by fmajid »

rvn1045 wrote: post #99
_jgdh wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it requires a lot self awareness and external education to learn about your own privilege and how difficult (relatively) other people have it. It's not easy.

It really does not in a place like India where differences between the rich and the ultra poor are everywhere to witness. You cannot miss it. 90% of the country is living in poverty.

Caste is not necessarily associated with wealth. My dad's old teacher in Hyderabad was a Brahmin and he lived in very modest circumstances.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#119

Post by fmajid »

barry-cotter wrote: post #102
jerzyt wrote: post #45

What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the co…

> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy o…

I've seen it explicitly at work in the US, e.g. in choosing which partners to marry.

Ironically, it is breaking down in India because of female infanticide creating a skewed gender distribution (around 1.14:1, when the natural distribution is 1.05:1), and men having no choice but to look outside their caste if they want to marry.

Re: Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

#120

Post by barry-cotter »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #105
barry-cotter wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy o…

Your being naive Caste discrimination does exit in communities overseas in the UK for example.

I believe you. It just doesn’t matter. Once immigration stops these people will all dissolve into the general population like the Huegenots, Flemings or other old ethnic groups. When mass immigration from the subcontinent stops caste based discrimination will go from a lot less than in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh to non-existent in short order.
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